Letter from feminists against Pride protest

[MillyTheKid]

Link to letter and article in The Independent:

solidaritystatement650530505.wordpress.com/

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-pride-lgbt-anti-trans-protest-transphobia-a8442366.html

Duffy has apparently been hounded off Twitter by those who agree to her views on the transgender issue.

I had a look at the responses to one of her tweets - memes and stating biological reality - not a single threat of violence, interesting how that works huh?

Others on that list are clearly not. It's impossible to be a lesbian if you are male.

Perhaps the oldest definition of lesbian is "women who have a romantic relationship with other women". That's a much broader definition than "homosexual female" which insists that the relationship must be sexual, indeed replaces romance with sex, and clearly attempts to narrow woman down to female in an obvious attempt to exclude trans women.

Romance can, of course, include sex but it is so much richer than only being sex.

There are post after post on FWR objecting that trans women are changing the meaning of the word woman but the Pride protesters are doing the same thing and re-defining the term lesbian. The key difference is that one group is being inclusive and embrace more people and one is exclusive and tries to remove people from the old definition.

which insists that the relationship must be sexual, indeed replaces romance with sex

Homosexual clearly refers to biological sex. It's not "homogenderal". Homo just means same. Sex means male or female as well as the sex act.

"homosexual female" which insists that the relationship must be sexual

I think you're confusing what the 'sexual' bit means - it means attracted to the same sex, not that sexual intercourse is obligatory.

Plus of course, throughout history, lesbians haven't been considered to be 'having sex' because no penis was involved - which is what your definition is edging towards I would say.

Lesbian means woman (ie. adult human female) attracted to other women (adult human females) - if you walk out on the street right now, that's what people would understand it to mean - the amount of sexual intercourse being had is neither here nor there.

Homosexual clearly refers to biological sex.

Exactly - although our definition of biological sex differs I am sure. But the point I am making is that while some - increasingly many - lesbians are homosexual the history of the word is much broader and is being redefined in an exclusive way to erase some lesbians.

There was a couple of ladies who lived together near where I was brought up decades ago. They clearly loved each other. They were companions and both had chosen not to be with men. It was a lesbian relationship.

Were they homosexual lovers? Nobody knew: nobody cared. But by the definition of "homosexual female" they would no longer be seen a lesbian couple because they were not out as sexually active. As a lesbian and feminist, I hate the protestors' definition because it is exclusionary and erases some lesbians and places an emphasis on sex rather than romance or companionship.

If people want to celebrate their sexuality they should be able to but erasing lesbians who have a broader view of lesbianism is simply wrong.

Jeez Snappity your mental gymnastics are getting a workout this morning. Has anyone ever said or implied "homosexual female" means "have to be having sex"? You've inferred something no one has ever remotely suggested. It's the basis for attraction. If people don't act on it sexually it doesn't change that definition.

So you're saying that the definition that "lesbians are female homosexuals" necessitates women actively demonstrating certain sexual activities with other women to prove they meet the label?

I mean, sounds like a very typical male fantasy, but it's not what we're saying at all.

You can be a lesbian who's never had sex. Or one who's had lots. Or one who never even says it out loud. All that you need to be is a woman who's only sexually attracted to other women.

What does the IA+ stand for? I also don't understand why they include Q for queer because that's just another word for homosexual. I have a few issues with the wording of the letter.

All of us are active in the arts, community organising, the media and education
How is this relevant?

We have all benefited from the deep analysis, radical lifestyle and astonishing bravery of the lesbian feminists who came before us – actions that we understood to be about dismantling the patriarchy, liberating all women from gendered oppression and re-imagining the future
Most of the early feminists (18th-early 20th century) were straight so I find it very insulting that only "lesbian feminists" are "brave" for speaking out.

It isn’t trans women running down the NHS so that lesbians can’t access the health care they need
A sex change should not be free on the NHS. If you want an op to make your penis look like a vulva then you should go private. The NHS is under enough strain as it is and there are huge waiting lists for people with really serious health conditions (physical and mental).

The astonishing campaign in Ireland to legalise abortion patently understood that abortion rights and trans rights go hand in hand
A woman who is forced to be a handmaid against her will cannot be compared with a man who wants to be a woman (or vice versa).

So how often do I need to be having sex in order for me to be a heterosexual?

Are virgins then in a state of limbo?

Of course not. Sexual intercourse is different to biological sex.

Sexual intercourse is not required to validate someone's sexuality.

I was hetero sexual before I had ever had sex, I was heterosexual between relationships, I'm heterosexual now. There is no requirement to actually have sex when stating your sexual attraction

It makes my head ache to try to decode these threads. A lesbian is an adult woman with an adult woman's body. A roomful of lesbians is a penis free room.

I’m a vegan but I eat meat half the week. I’m redefining what it means to be vegan so as to be inclusive of meat eaters. Anyway who says I’m not a vegan is hateful and bigoted.

See how ridiculous it sounds?

I was hetero sexual before I had ever had sex, I was heterosexual between relationships, I'm heterosexual now. There is no requirement to actually have sex when stating your sexual attraction

But you are reducing lesbianism to sexual interest or sexual attraction when historically lesbianism has included those things but has been about romantic interest. Lesbian relationships can be platonic. That has historically always been the case. The new definition erases that.

But you are reducing lesbianism to sexual interest or sexual attraction

No, I really wasn't - you were the one saying that having sexual intercourse was important to a definition of being a lesbian - I'm saying that sex is neither here nor there..

But you are reducing lesbianism to sexual interest or sexual attraction when historically lesbianism has included those things but has been about romantic interest. Lesbian relationships can be platonic.

Yes - attraction.

I think we also disagree on the word 'platonic' because in my world, a romantic relationship is not platonic.

I have a platonic relationship with many men and many women, their sex doesn't matter, because it's platonic. I am attracted to men - I only have romantic relationships with men - because I am heterosexual.

Two women living together as friends, isn't a lesbian relationship, and more than I was in a heterosexual relationship with a male housemate at Uni.

I think where you're getting confused, is that historically, many lesbian couples would have described themselves as friends, and externally, many people wouldn't have considered lesbian sexual intercourse to be sexual intercourse at all, because no penis was involved.

How on earth do abortion rights and trans rights go hand in hand? I would say they literally have absolutely no relationship at all?

How on earth do abortion rights and trans rights go hand in hand? I would say they literally have absolutely no relationship at all?

Only in that transmen may need both rights, but no, there's no direct relationship otherwise..

I’m a vegan but I eat meat half the week. I’m redefining what it means to be vegan so as to be inclusive of meat eaters. Anyway who says I’m not a vegan is hateful and bigoted.

Bigot. LOL!

I'm not saying I agree with Snappity but what I think she is saying that the lesbian couple she is referring to might possibly never have had a sexual relationship or even wanted one. Therefore their relationship was , possibly, not founded on sexual attraction but purely by companionship and platonic love.

By contrast I know 2 gay men both of whom are out now but who had a very closeted relationship. They never had sex because one of them was also a devout Catholic convert. They were sexually attracted to each other but they never had sex. There was more to the attraction than sex but ultimately the relationship foundered.

I think what Snappity is trying to say that the protestors' definition of "homosexual" includes the latter celibate relationship but excludes the former, possibly equally, celibate relationship. Although who knows the lesbian couple might also have been desirous of sex but prevented by taboos from having it.

If that is what Snappity is saying I could imagine in my old age if my husband were dead sharing a house with a female friend for companionship and convenience. I may well love that friend but that would not make me a lesbian and I would not accept being called a lesbian.

Taking it to the logical conclusion of trying to force lesbians to accept penises, it would be:

"I'm redefining chicken nuggets to mean carrots, and insisting that vegans eat them, and kicking anyone out who won't."

And now:

"Anyone who's ever looked like a carrot-enjoyer is clearly a vegan."

The new definition erases that.

WHAT new definition? Where has anyone - on a thread or any of the protesters - said that "lesbian = female homosexual who compulsorily engages in sex with another female"?

Alternatively, many trans activists' definition of lesbian obsessively focus on the sex part i.e. it involving a penis. Funny how they don't focus on platonic relationships

Just more DARVO.

And it's another attempt to derail. Let's talk about the content of that statement and the signatories.

And it's another attempt to derail

Yep

Oh, and they endorse Trans Heath Action, whose batshit mainfesto includes such gems as "We demand resources for hair removal anywhere on our bodies, and the option of local anesthetic during these procedures" (good to know your hip operation is on hold while a middle-class male working in IT has their chest hair lasered off on the public purse). and "We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners" (which presumably includes the 60+ rapists and violent sex offenders currently in the UK prison system who ID as trans).

This tells me all I need to know about those signing, tbh. To support such an extremist group..yeah.

The "sexual" part refers to biological sex, not the act of having sex. Thus heterosexual means attraction to someone of the opposite sex, and homosexual means attraction to someone of the same sex.

Oh, and they endorse Trans Heath Action

Do they? Where does the letter say that?

This is great 🏳️‍🌈

Hate will never win.