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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter from feminists against Pride protest

135 replies

MillyTheKid · 14/07/2018 22:07

Link to letter and article in The Independent:

solidaritystatement650530505.wordpress.com/

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-pride-lgbt-anti-trans-protest-transphobia-a8442366.html

OP posts:
Mogleflop · 15/07/2018 13:50

And vegans will eat chicken nuggets 🐣👌💝

It's not hatred to say women exist and are different from men. If that is hatred to you, then you're in for a very long sad life grieving it.

Sarahconnor1 · 15/07/2018 13:52

lass it's on the WordPress link.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 15/07/2018 13:54

Lass:

Donating to Action for Trans Health which seeks to improve trans people’s access to healthcare.

It's the last line before the signatures.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 15/07/2018 13:57

Either you work for the liberation of all or you work for the liberation of no-one

But back to the letter - the above would look lovely on a fridge magnet, but it's absolute nonsense read one way, and ominous threat read another...

They don't even follow it themselves - calling for support for organisations which limit their scope to trans, or to women (whatever the definition) or to immigrants (all of which is fine by the way, I'm completely fine with people campaigning on single interests - it's ridiculous to expect otherwise).

Then again, if I read it the second way, it's more, "do it our way, or we'll stop you doing it at all" which, TBH, fits my experience with this better.

bigoldscaredycat · 15/07/2018 14:14

You’re right daim, we agree on something. Hate will never win.

And the hate we’re seeing here is coming from males and directed at women. Thankfully, women are and will continue to speak out against the vile misogyny of the transactivists, in greater numbers every day!

Magpiesarehuge · 15/07/2018 14:21

There was a couple of ladies who lived together near where I was brought up decades ago. They clearly loved each other. They were companions and both had chosen not to be with men. It was a lesbian relationship.

So my 2 old aunts (sisters) never married or had children but lived together. Were they lesbians? 2 women choosing to live together for company and financial reasons? Brave New World.

LemonJello · 15/07/2018 14:29

Yikes.

I can never understand how people can put their names to things without properly researching them.

Action for Trans Health are seriously bonkers, with their Edinburgh chapter calling for the release of all trans prisoners which obviously includes many sex offenders, and training so they can perform surgery on themselves.

How can people like Dr Leanne Dawson, put their professional name and university accreditation to something so barking?

I am an academic and would be MORTIFIED if I had signed something publicly without due diligence. On the other hand maybe she agrees with A4TH aims? Confused. I don’t know which is worse really.

Oscarino · 15/07/2018 14:35

There was a couple of ladies who lived together near where I was brought up decades ago. They clearly loved each other. They were companions and both had chosen not to be with men. It was a lesbian relationship.

Usually the people who pronounce women who manage to live happily even though they have “chosen not to be with men” to be lesbians without further evidence are .... men. Women have less trouble imagining friendships between women.

Who decided this was a lesbian relationship? Was it just you or did the whole town discuss the relationship between these women?

Italiangreyhound · 15/07/2018 15:23

@NotBadConsidering your post at the start of this thread is excellent.

Who is going to offer to write a piece for that paper exposing the crap ofAction for Trans Health and explaining that the whole point of these activities is to compromise women's freedom to choose not to be with men?

I know what a lesbian is even though I am straight!

And the private lives of old ladies who live together are private.

As should be the lives of lesbians who do not want to be rapishly coerced into accepting males as sexual or romantic partners.

Where are the lesbian lawyers and why are newspapers even printing this abusive rapey shit!

leyat · 15/07/2018 16:15

I was in a twitter convo with Stella Duffy when she decided to leave twitter. Here is what I tweeted to her:

"You clearly define womanhood as the feminine gender, & beyond the sexism + misogyny of that, you are saying that 'women' includes feminine men, & thus that your sexuality has revolved around stereotypes. But do you understand most lesbians' sexuality doesn't? Can you accept that?" (To which she replied how would I know that most don't define their lesbian sexuality this way, and she then criticised me for being anonymous online, and called it 'very telling' - I can't quote her because her tweet is gone).

I replied: "Yes Stella, I am anonymous online as many women are. I first went anonymous as it is my only way to safely engage & talk about my experience of rape & domestic violence. Many women are in the same position, how on earth can you found a women's equality party & not understand the barriers to women re participation in public life? Perhaps especially for working class women like me? Also, trans activists in Edinburgh, where I live, have called for women like me to be beaten up on sight. Do you think I should put myself in danger in order to have a voice? Do you understand that what is telling about my anonymity is that I have been subject to violent misogyny, including from trans activists? And re lesbian sexuality, surveys show that most lesbians define their sexuality based on sex & will not date those of the opposite sex even if they believe in lady brains & think they have one. If you were fine with that you would not attack them for fighting against the homophobia that says their sexuality is inherently objectionable/transphobic; you would instead be fighting against that homophobia yourself".

Then she said she felt bullied and wanted to deactivate her account.

The thing is she was just getting reasonable tweets like mines, challenging her position, a position she could not defend, and they were not great in number either, but I didn't push anything with her as she then said she has MH issues so I just told her to take care of herself. But time and again we see with those who write/sign their names to letters like this that they don't have a clue about the implications of their position. The fact that Stella doesn't even understand the need for anonymity online for many women was just another sign that women can say they stand for equality and liberation and even start political parties for this purpose and still not actually be feminist.

Also let's not forget ATH Edinburgh says that violence against feminist women is proportionate & necessary. They actually promote VAW. This letter is a thorough embarrassment. No wonder no-one has stuck around to defend it.

HotRocker · 15/07/2018 16:19

Does anybody remember that Stephen Fry documentary a couple of years ago about homophobia, in which he stated that he didn’t have anal sex with his partners? I wonder if Stephen Fry, who has also criticised the eight lesbians who protested last week, would like it to be suggested that he isn’t actually homosexual after all? And presumably, if he isn’t actually homosexual after all, any hate or discrimination he has faced in his life for being romantically involved with other men is not homophobia.
@Snappity I wonder if you’d like to tweet that at him and see what he says? In fact, why don’t you ask him if he would have a relationship with a man who has a vagina? If he wouldn’t, you should probably let him know that he is being transphobic.

leyat · 15/07/2018 16:37

HotRocker or even just ask him if he watches porn, and if he does, how much of it involves females. To be clear I am anti-porn, but I mention it because it is very telling how men like Adrien Harrop berate women endlessly for saying sex matters, including in relation to our sexuality, but then he also admits that he only watches male porn 'because I'm gay'. Since he has no idea whatsoever of the gender identities of porn actors, his admission makes it very clear that he actually understands very well that sex matters and is what defines our sexuality. I bet Stephen does as well.

ballsballsballs · 15/07/2018 16:44

It doesn't actually matter that these signatories disagree with the protesters. The women who protested were tight.

ballsballsballs · 15/07/2018 16:45

*right

Autocorrect fail!

Sarahconnor1 · 15/07/2018 16:50

If anyone hasn't read the ATH manifesto it's copied on the Fair play website
fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-organisation-demands/

catkind · 15/07/2018 17:05

The lesbians I know in real life are also very transactivist in their views. I think being older when trans became such a trend, and being in established couples, they haven't been on the sharp end. They also tend to know some nice well meaning transwomen through LGBT groups they attend, who are transsexual and have had a hard time and are clearly zero threat to anyone. So they assume that protecting their nice harmless friends is what it's all about.

MillyTheKid · 15/07/2018 17:23

The lesbians I know in real life are also very transactivist in their views.

Perhaps the truth is that outside of this site the vast majority of lesbians don't have an issue with trans people and the vast majority of trans people aren't causing issues for lesbians. I hardly see any lesbians or trans people talking about some of the issues that are discussed on here. It just doesn't seem to be on their radar.

OP posts:
Mogleflop · 15/07/2018 17:29

Schrodinger's Mumsnet: You're pointless, there are so few of you, no one in real life feels this way or talks about these issues. But also: You're all hateful, you keep magically converting people, you need to be shut down.

OP, I wouldn't talk in front of you either. There's a reason we're on an anonymous forum here and it's because TRAs violently suppress free speech elsewhere.

Vickyyyy · 15/07/2018 17:30

Every lesbian I know has had issues with 'transwomen' at some stage in the past few years. I only know this as I specifically asked after finding out all the cotton ceiling nonsense. Maybe Newcastle just has a higher proportion of pushy entitled males who think lesbians owe them sex because they put on dress or something. Mind, we all know a fairly high amount of actual transsexual people who cause no issues too (oddly enough, transsexual women fully acknowledge they are male, it seems to be these new 'transgenders' that are the issue..) but yeah, it definitely happens here.

Sarahconnor1 · 15/07/2018 17:34

Mind, we all know a fairly high amount of actual transsexual people who cause no issues too (oddly enough, transsexual women fully acknowledge they are male, it seems to be these new 'transgenders' that are the issue..)

Hits the nail firmly on the head

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/07/2018 17:38

Schrodinger's Mumsnet: You're pointless, there are so few of you, no one in real life feels this way or talks about these issues. But also: You're all hateful, you keep magically converting people, you need to be shut down

Yep...apparently the only people in the world ever who have even been even vaguely critical of anything vaguely trans related are on mumsnet...that s like FACT

MillyTheKid · 15/07/2018 17:57

Yep...apparently the only people in the world ever who have even been even vaguely critical of anything vaguely trans related are on mumsnet...that s like FACT

Actually I used 'vast majority'. If I'd been suggesting that the only people who have an issue were on Mumsnet I would have used 'all'.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/07/2018 18:22

Oh abject apologies

Yep...apparently the vast majority of people in the world ever who have even been even vaguely critical of anything vaguely trans related are on mumsnet...that s like FACT

There we go...

Not being snarky, you are completely correct and I usually hate it when people dont use some or misrepresent...however accidental

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 18:50

Actually I used 'vast majority'. If I'd been suggesting that the only people who have an issue were on Mumsnet I would have used 'all'.

Still bullshit though.

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 18:53

OP, I wouldn't talk in front of you either. There's a reason we're on an anonymous forum here and it's because TRAs violently suppress free speech elsewhere.

This is it. Why would someone reveal their concerns or lived experience to someone who sneers and dismisses and gaslights them? There are people I don't reveal my experiences of abuse to as well.

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