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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter from feminists against Pride protest

135 replies

MillyTheKid · 14/07/2018 22:07

Link to letter and article in The Independent:

solidaritystatement650530505.wordpress.com/

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-pride-lgbt-anti-trans-protest-transphobia-a8442366.html

OP posts:
Sarahconnor1 · 15/07/2018 08:21

Excellent post NotBadConsidering. Agreed.

This letter starts by acknowledging the issues raised by the protesters do in fact exist. Yes, the broader LGBTQIA+ umbrella houses people with deeply problematic views, misogyny and lesbophobia among them.

But it then goes on a ramble conflating lots of different issues to minimise and dismiss the experiences of women. How original

sanluca · 15/07/2018 08:22

Agree, busyboysmum. All this redefining words until they mean everything and therefore nothing, really pisses me off. Can't these people look beyond their woke inclusiviness to actually do a risk assesment on the consequences of these changes?

bigoldscaredycat · 15/07/2018 08:23

I read a piece by a SJW recently who described himself as a cis queer white male who identifies as fat.

He was morbidly obese. I am not sure how identifying as fat works in that context.

Snappity · 15/07/2018 08:49

So in summary of the claims on this thread by those opposing this letter

  • Trans women are not women
  • The feminists who wrote the letter are not feminists
  • One poster even suggested that the lesbians who wrote the letter are not lesbians

Spot a pattern?

Mogleflop · 15/07/2018 08:50

Feminists can disagree with anyone (and themselves) and frequently do.

There's no such thing as a unified feminist consciousness after all, just many individuals with a shared broad idea - that women should be liberated from the stupid stuff in society that consciously or unconsciously puts them lower than men.

The problem here is how you define women and lesbians.

Our position is broadly that:

  • Women are the human mortals who are biologically born into a body of the female sex; you can't feel or become female or male, you just are
  • Sex isn't ascribed to babies by medics, it's just "there" in some form. Sex cannot be changed.
  • Society treats sexes differently. This leads to gender stereotypes, which are societal constructs. Some of them seem to have been born out of historical patterns ("women give birth to babies and keep them alive, better with children and at home; men in fields with livestock, better at science and politics"), some out of preferences ("pink is a boy's colour; now it's a girl's"). Gender is changeable.
  • Lesbians, by definition, are women who are attracted to other women. This isn't cruelty at men who wish they were women, but yes it is exclusionary, that's the point. If a lesbian enjoys penises, by definition she's not a lesbian anymore. Still a person who enjoys sex with women, but not lesbian.
  • Women who hate the "feeling" of being a woman and want to be a man, will always be women biologically, and probably have been socialised a certain way too. And the same with men vice-versa.

So that's where posters here often come from.

If you believe that womanhood is a sensation or a feeling, and that anyone can be one, it's really difficult for us to have meaningful conversations - because that basic underlying premise determines all the rest of the logical arguments. We say "women" and you think "bigots".

But on that note, it's really hard to know what trans means and I think we sometimes talk at cross-purposes in what we mean there too. What qualifies after all? When do you become trans? Is it the moment of declaration? Social transition? Medical transition?

If you say that "woman is a feeling" then:

  • How do you distinguish between someone with agonising gender dysphoria, someone with a kind of fetish, or someone who's jumping on a bandwagon to attention-seek?
  • How do you protect vulnerable young people from mislabelling themselves thanks to messages like "if you're not feminine than you're a man" and ending up infertile? (I'm thinking of autistic kids like me especially here, but it's not limited to them).
  • How do you assign medical resources to help those desperately asking for it, when others say it's not a medical or mental health issue?
  • How do you protect women in general from men who are just out for a good old sexual kick? I've seen posts like "that's not a real transwomen then" in response to cases where men identifying as women have done shitty things; but then what on earth is?
  • How do you help actually biologically born women to fight inherent sexism and reach equality, when people born as men can take opportunities like scholarships, sports, refuges, and more - because it validates something inside them?

Sorry, this has turned into an epically long post, and I'm not even sure if you'll bother reading it, but I don't want you to think we're all just random lunatics dead set against transpeople or something @MillyTheKid.

We're against male rights activists who are riding roughshod over all of us in the name of transactivism.

Abouttoblow · 15/07/2018 08:58

Brilliant post notbadconsidering

I would also add that I have NEVER heard a lesbian say they identify as a lesbian, not once.

bigoldscaredycat · 15/07/2018 09:03

hand shoots up Hermione Grainger style

I do spot a pattern Snappity!!

It’s women speaking out in unison against the redefining of the words used to describe us!

Do I get a prize?

Juells · 15/07/2018 09:08

@Snappity

So in summary of the claims on this thread by those opposing this letter

  • Trans women are not women
  • The feminists who wrote the letter are not feminists
  • One poster even suggested that the lesbians who wrote the letter are not lesbians

Spot a pattern?

__

I don't think you'd like the pattern most posters are spotting. Grin

LangCleg · 15/07/2018 09:17

There are feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

There are people who call themselves feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

There. Fixed that for you. If you aren't working for the liberation of women from patriarchy, you aren't a feminist. If you aren't a female homosexual, you aren't a lesbian.

Today I identify as a Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. See how it works?

HTH

Cooroo · 15/07/2018 09:19

Notbadconsidering and Mogleflop have said everything there is to say on the whole issue. Thanks for these excellent posts.

TheBiologicalWoman · 15/07/2018 09:28

Another so called feminists with concerns over, you know, real feminism.

mobile.twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1018402888702464000/photo/1

TheBiologicalWoman · 15/07/2018 09:31

As a feminist I am profoundly concerned by anti-trans feminist rhetoric

Sally Hines, Transgender Identity. As highligted by The Economist.

ArcheryAnnie · 15/07/2018 09:37

So in summary of the claims on this thread by those opposing this letter

Trans women are not women
The feminists who wrote the letter are not feminists
One poster even suggested that the lesbians who wrote the letter are not lesbians

Spot a pattern?

...the acknowledgement of reality, Snappity?

Transwomen aren't women.

If you are a rape apologist of either sex, or a male who champions violent pornography and pimping, then you aren't a feminist.

If you are a male you aren't a lesbian.

Easy.

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 09:51

Really? A feminist is never allowed to criticise another woman when she doesn't agree with her?

That's not what this is about. It's about actively working to undermine women's rights.

UpstartCrow · 15/07/2018 09:55

Definitions are exclusionary. Words have meaning.
Women have had to fight for every little thing, and everything we have can be taken away. No one has the right to undermine women's rights, and if they do its bizarre they choose to call themselves feminists.

Juells · 15/07/2018 10:03

To quote someone or other "bullshit, bullshit, it's all bullshit".

Once you see the words "identify as..." you know what follows will be bullshit of the highest order.

I'm heterosexual. I don't identify as heterosexual, it's what I am. Lesbians are adult female homosexuals. They don't identify as lesbians, it's what they are.

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 10:06

I counted at least 4 male people on that list (and didn't know who most of the people were) Not "feminists".

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 15/07/2018 10:13

I think that if you're going to try to redefine a word, that it's only polite to provide a new definition at least, since words mean things.

I would be universally acknowledged by people on the street as a woman. So that new definition needs to include me. My partner would be clearly seen as a man, so it needs to exclude him.

Transwomen would like it to include them, and transmen would like it to exclude them, so it's getting tougher.

Some fuzziness is OK at the edges (eg. intersex) - because these things are disorders that are, by their definition, fuzzy around sex.

It obviously can't be circular, as that's not a definition.

It's the foundation upon which the definitions of feminism and lesbianism are going to be then built - so it's bloody important.

It's going to affect existing laws, already written with the conventional definition in mind

What is this new definition? Please, there's been a lot of talking about this, it's really important, what is the definition? Snappity?

LaSquirrel · 15/07/2018 10:15

Truly epic and excellent breakdown, NotBadConsidering. I could not get past that first par of eyerolling drivel.

This part though, particularly noteworthy. I also want to see this:
I would genuinely want to know if every single signature on that letter fully agrees with and would happily release the statement "a lesbian can have a penis. Any lesbian who refuses to have sex with someone with a penis is transphobic and a vagina fetishist". It would make their position a lot clearer and get rid of all the bull in between.

Also very good posts, Mogleflop, and GeorgeFayne.

As soon as someone says "I identify as ..." it effectively means they are NOT the thing stated. And that is the crux of the current 'identity politics'. A whole bunch of people claiming to be things they are not. Cool woke/oppression points to be had by all!

I am a lesbian. I do not 'identify as a lesbian'.
I am female. I do not 'identify as female'.
I am a woman. I do not 'identify as a woman'.

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 10:25

Yes, some great posts on this thread.

LassWiADelicateAir · 15/07/2018 10:29

Beth Ditto, Stella Duffy and Louise Wallwein will be interested to hear they are not lesbians.

Ditto has hung her whole career on being a loud, proud, very visible lesbian.

Wallwein I had to Google- she describes herself as a butch lesbian, dyke. Here are a couple of pictures of her. Butch as get out but still obviously a woman.

Duffy is open about being a lesbian but it's not a career defining characteristic.

Letter from feminists against Pride protest
Letter from feminists against Pride protest
Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 10:30

Did anyone say none of them were lesbians, Lass?

ArcheryAnnie · 15/07/2018 10:31

Lass some on that list are lesbians - that is, they are female homosexuals.

Others on that list are clearly not. It's impossible to be a lesbian if you are male.

MillyTheKid · 15/07/2018 10:45

Beth Ditto, Stella Duffy and Louise Wallwein will be interested to hear they are not lesbians.

Duffy has apparently been hounded off Twitter by those who agree to her views on the transgender issue.

OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 15/07/2018 10:53

To answer your question- yes someone has said none of the signatories are lesbian.

If they have come together to publicly condemn Lesbians the likelyhood that they are Feminists is a gynormous zero

I would add the likelihood that they were lesbians was about the same tbh.

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