Historically Claiming People as Trans

[UglyCathKidstonBag]

Has anyone got any examples of this?
I’ve been reading a bit into Stonewall and how it was set up and one group seem to claim Sylvia Rivera as trans whilst others dispute this.

And Dante Tex Gill (who Scarlett J was set to play) is now being called trans which many people all dispute.

A woman I went to university with (who to be fair I only spoke to a few times) was, amongst the people who knew and lived with, always a lesbian. She was butch and used the unisex shortening of her name and always referred to herself as a woman.
Sadly she died about 18 months ago. Recently people outside of her social circle, at a uni event, starting calling her a “trans man” and have even changed her Wikipedia page to reflect their view point.

Are there further examples?

Which one?

This one?

I have only not Ed this with butch lesbians tbh. As of a woman can't decide she doesn't want to wear a corset and trousers without being automatically assumed a man. It's gender stereotyping at its finest.

Yes!

Thank you!

It's interesting to note that women who went to war are now being 'claimed' as trans when that patently isn't true, correct or part of any kind of reality. And eunuchs are also now trans? I believe there's some straw in the corner behind the aspidistra that you could either grasp or make men out of should you choose to do so.

Women routinely wear trousers and are not considered men.

Many women have jobs which would be considered 'masculine' and are not considered men.

Why men would wear something as impractical as dresses or skirts I have no idea, but you're still a man if you're wearing a dress.

Men can wear make-up and should be considered men.

Considering Prick News' drinking of the Trans Kool-Aid, this is a surprise.

www.pride.com/style/2016/12/14/these-16-guys-prove-2016s-best-trend-was-men-wearing-makeup

But people who have surpassed the binary modes of modern western culture have existed throughout history throughout the world.

So the woman I went to university with, who defined herself as a butch lesbian has surpassed the binary modes of modern western culture? Is that by wearing trousers, having a medical degree or fucking women? Or just being dead?

She laid out pretty clearly who she was in life but now she is dead she has to face some kind of cultural cleansing? It’s homophobia plain and simple. Straight up, unabashed homophobia.

She made a name for herself in her field, hence having a Wikipedia page. Her wife and children try to change that page back and as soon as they change it someone else reverts it back. An agenda, bigger than her life, is stealing the history of who she was for a cause. Her family are not transphobic, they just want the reality of who she was represented to the larger audience her magnificent and medically revolutionary work afforded her.

When they all die off and can’t fight for her name and the true representation of who she is, she will, presumably be a trans man to the wider world forever?

That’s just infuriates me.

errr, I posted about a map of gender diversity, I didn't say it was all 'trans'. The definitions and terms are set by their own language and society, but there is a lot of overlap to experiences with gender identity and trans people.

Many cultures had labels outside the binary as default because gender diversity was understood int their own terms.

Our cultures are literally social constructs that vary greatly, and still many historical records show we had binary and non-binary trans identities across human existence.
Defined and expressed in social-specific narratives.

It is natural human diversity, but the more patriarchal the society, the more trans people have been oppressed.

All we are seeing now, is language and meanings being naturally corrected to contain the whole range of human experience.
There is still much educating to do, but most people are coming round to the acceptance that this is the right thing to do, harms no-one and enriches the human experience.

As with most social changes, there will be reactionaries who cannot fathom whats going on and rail against it, but eventually they become irrelevant as majority rule, common sense and decency leaves them behind.

Garam - it’s not a map of ‘gender diversity’ though is it? It’s a map of human diversity that provides strong evidence that the idea of gender is an ideology because these expressions are more human than they are sexed...

Why do you think this is news to this board?

You have failed to realise that this board is well aware that Patriarchy oppresses all people using a gender caste system/gender heirarchy, the purpose of which is to give men control over reproduction hence the oppression being directed primarily at women but that all people who do not conform to the rules regarding gender are harmed....

It is not oppression directed at transpeople, it is oppression directed at women and all people who don’t conform to the system are punished because it weakens the ability for reproduction to be controlled by men.

And this is the entire foundation of why GC people do not want to swap one type of oppressive gender regime for another one and have our real sex based needs erased thereby totally eradicating the route out of oppression for all people harmed by the gender system.

GC people have been supportive of non-conformity with the gender system for eons. But yet, here you are calling us ‘the oppressor’ while trying to impose a differently constituted system of gender oppression!

An interesting article from Nature, about the skeleton of the castrato singer Gaspare Pacchierotti (1740–1821).

www.nature.com/articles/srep28463

As with most social changes, there will be reactionaries who cannot fathom whats going on and rail against it, but eventually they become irrelevant as majority rule, common sense and decency leaves them behind.

And this... where do I begin with this?! Could you stop tub thumping for a second and consider the possibility that the reason this is being championed by this Tory govt, which has been repeatedly open about their desire to totally dismantle discrimination laws, could be because actually it doesn’t actually challenge the foundations of the gender heirarchy and it does actually make routes out of oppression much more difficult?

I read Garam;s post coming after OPs one to suggest that the woman whose family are fighting the Wiki battle to get her recognised as the butch lesbian she was, rather than the trans man she is being claimed as

Need re-educating, as it is actually their terminology and understanding of the world that is out of date, and possibly they are reactionary.

I think that's a shitty thing to suggest.

If you can’t understand that giving people gender based labels, not binary sex which is material reality, is how the oppression works whether those labels are based on binary sex or based on identity then that is where you come into conflict with GC people and that is also why these proposed reforms will fail to remove the oppression - for everyone, all the trans people under stonewall’s umbrella...

Egyptian Queen Hatshepsut ...After her death, her second husband attempted to erase all record of her.

Traditionally her nephew/step son and co-ruler who was too young to rule when her husband/half-brother ( her father's son by the second wife) died is supposed to have done this.

However, I thought recent research was casting doubt on this and that the damage was done in one of his successors reign.

Not a great source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut
Amenhotep II, the son of Thutmose III, who became a co-regent toward the end of his father's reign, is suspected by some as being the defacer during the end of the reign of a very old pharaoh. He would have had a motive because his position in the royal lineage was not so strong as to assure his elevation to pharaoh. He is documented, further, as having usurped many of Hatshepsut's accomplishments during his own reign. His reign is marked with attempts to break the royal lineage as well, not recording the names of his queens and eliminating the powerful titles and official roles of royal women, such as God's Wife of Amun

The original assumptions came from the western fairy tale evil woman trope - evil usurping step mum must have been hated by step son.

Her daughter wouldn't even have been a threat as she'd have been married to of her cousin/step brother and stood a good chance of being chief wife - that what they did kept royal blood pure and cut down on the number of potential heirs.

Saw a recent documentary about first pharaoh successor - the upper class British arachnologist assumed bad blood as second son ruled after him and didn’t find a tomb- more recent research found his missing tomb - found a son showing reverence to his father and his bother sons working in important posts and far from being forgotten his cult manage to survive till roman times. The tradition first arachnologist came from assume first son and then their heirs inheriate ignoreing all the other sytems that have existed across globe and throughout time.

Queen Hatshepsut was depicted with beard and in male costume as that was what pharaoh wore - equivalent to spectate and crown in our culture.

It does show that this bad practise to look at the past though a lens -of pre conceived ideas.

@UglyCathKidstonBag

Can the family ask to have the Wiki page 'locked'?

If you can’t understand that giving people gender based labels, not binary sex which is material reality, is how the oppression works whether those labels are based on binary sex or based on identity then that is where you come into conflict with GC people and that is also why these proposed reforms will fail to remove the oppression - for everyone, all the trans people under stonewall’s umbrella...

binary sex isn't material reality its a social construct as much as gender, it's based on an arbitary list of characteristics.

If you want to say reproductive class is a material reality, you may have a point, but people are not just oppressed because of their reproductive class, especially in social settings where someone trans can pass as a woman and face the same oppression's regardless of 'born reproductive class', yes women face the brunt of it because of numbers and their reproductive class, but so do lgbt people across the spectrum.

This is plain common sense, and the majority are beginning to understand more and more how this plays out in terms of trans identities around the world.

Having a bigger chest is not massively helpful in singing really high notes though.

To sing soprano/flute or whistle notes you need thin vocal chords with good chord closure. You use a tiny amount of air, released at high pressure. If you use to much air the vocal folds blow apart and the voice would crack. A larger lung volume would help with sustaining a note though and the larger skull of a male would change the resonance somewhat and would give a unique sound, I’m sure. Would that sound be worth mutilating a child for though? That would be a no from me.

That choral clip was beautiful but it is not impossible for a counter tennor, with good technique, to be able to extend into the soprano range even without castration. I do think there is an underlying “men can do woman better than women” trope underpinning it all. I remember reading years ago that the notion that church choirs needed to be all male because prepubescent boys voices were more pure than girls but when blind tested, you couldn’t tell the difference between the two.

We are not talking about other types of oppression. We are specifically talking about gender based oppression.

Binary sex is not a social construct, never mind the claim it is as socially constructed as gender.

Anyway... I see you are completely unable to engage with the substance of the discussion, preferring to instead continue tub thumping re your ideology and deploying whataboutery.. this makes you look like a fundamentalist and if there is one thing that is consistent across societies it’s a distaste for fundamentalists TBH.

Would that sound be worth mutilating a child for though? That would be a no from me.

That would be a no from me as well - but that's partly our cultural background playing into that.

Caffarelli - is one castrato from a wealthy background who despite having an income left him by a grandmother chose that path.

Senesino is more typical castrated by his parents in hope of lifting his family out of poverty.

I do think there is an underlying “men can do woman better than women” trope underpinning it all

I have wondered if that was there as well - but then there is only one recording and it's not great and despite caveats that the guy was past it does make you wonder if it was all or some of it was in the audience perception.

garam Mon
binary sex isn't material reality its a social construct as much as gender

Explain - how do other mammals reproduce? How does the male and the female recognise each other, mate and rear young in each species? Are they all deluded as well?

You seriously can't argue with this level of deceit. Believe this rubbish if you want, but stop trying to indoctrinate other people with it.

Anyway... I see you are completely unable to engage with the substance of the discussion, preferring to instead continue tub thumping re your ideology and deploying whataboutery.. this makes you look like a fundamentalist and if there is one thing that is consistent across societies it’s a distaste for fundamentalists TBH.

lol, someone disagreed with your ideology and you went off on one?
I'm the fundamentalist?? Your joking right? jeez.

People ignore the oppression of women; but as soon as men decide they are affected, they suddenly give a shit. Go figure.

*Explain - how do other mammals reproduce? How does the male and the female recognise each other, mate and rear young in each species? Are they all deluded as well?

You seriously can't argue with this level of deceit. Believe this rubbish if you want, but stop trying to indoctrinate other people with it.*

I already said reproductive class is one thing.
Sex is based on primary and secondary sex characteristics, all of which we currently use in discussions of medicine/social patterns etc are groups of man-made distinctions, and amongst others that were discarded....... those are arbitrary man-made decisions, about where we draw the line between different clusters of outcomes.

Quote..
"This entry examines the relationship between the concepts of “sex” and “gender” as used in theory and research. When scholars initially distinguished these two concepts, sex represented “biological” differences, while gender represented “social” differences. Today, many gender scholars problematize this distinction and understand both sex and gender as socially constructed categories of difference. Gender is the preferred term to refer to masculine and feminine identities as well as average differences between men as a group and women as a group. Intersex, transgender, and non‐binary gender identities have been used to theorize the relationship between sex and gender."