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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Historically Claiming People as Trans

142 replies

UglyCathKidstonBag · 13/07/2018 23:24

Has anyone got any examples of this?
I’ve been reading a bit into Stonewall and how it was set up and one group seem to claim Sylvia Rivera as trans whilst others dispute this.

And Dante Tex Gill (who Scarlett J was set to play) is now being called trans which many people all dispute.

A woman I went to university with (who to be fair I only spoke to a few times) was, amongst the people who knew and lived with, always a lesbian. She was butch and used the unisex shortening of her name and always referred to herself as a woman.
Sadly she died about 18 months ago. Recently people outside of her social circle, at a uni event, starting calling her a “trans man” and have even changed her Wikipedia page to reflect their view point.

Are there further examples?

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Offred · 14/07/2018 23:35

Sure there will be loads of ‘calling transpeople serial killers’ now... 🙄

That’s not my point. The point is; if some people (who were important civil rights campaigners or who have been thrust into the public eye again recently) like Marsha P Johnson, Joan D’Arc, Sylvia Rivera, Dante ‘Tex’ Gill etc ‘were trans’ based on cross dressing, transvestism, practical assumption of ‘opposite gender’ clothes, doing drag etc etc but serial killers who cross dressed are not, then why not the cross dressing serial killers?

Offred · 14/07/2018 23:37

I can imagine that being forcibly cross dressed by an abusive mother having already internalised the general sexist attitudes from society possibly takes it to another level TBH...

TheFemaleGaze · 15/07/2018 07:50

Some context about the Dana Rivers case in this thread:
www.datalounge.com/thread/21045201--dana-rivers-to-stand-trial-on-three-accounts-of-murder

boatyardblues · 15/07/2018 08:49

Those Datalounge posters do not hold back, but I don’t see any TRA pile-ons or counternarratives on there...

SirVixofVixHall · 15/07/2018 14:25

Probably would give a different sound to a soprano, boys sound different to female sopranos, and men have a much bigger chest.
Some men can naturally sing that high anyway, I wonder if that gives an equivalent sound ?
E.g this man. m.youtube.com/watch?v=yb_gYaOPsJQ
Here singing all parts. Voice box is different on a normal man though, so maybe his high notes would still be different from those of a castrato ? Interesting !

BertrandRussell · 15/07/2018 14:30

I thought that castrati were nearer to counter tenors than sopranos in sound? There is actually a recording somewhere of the last ever castrato-I can t remember where I heard it.

IJustHadToNameChange · 15/07/2018 14:51
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 15/07/2018 14:59

From the Datalounge thread (I removed a misgendering from the second paragraph).

Dana Rivers was among a group of trans women who were angry about being excluded from the Michigan Women's Music Festival (MichFest) which was limited to "women born women." And for good reason as it turns out. The murdered women (only one of whom was black BTW) were participants in MichFest. The poor son just had the bad luck of being there and probably trying to save his mother and her wife.

It will be interesting what sort of motive the defense lawyers offer up but there's really no excuse for the foot dragging when Rivers was found at the scene with the murder weapon in h* hand and was said to have made "spontaneous utterances" to police.

This is going to be a very messy case. If I understand correctly Rivers actually did have the full sexual reassignment surgery including "bottom surgery" which will open a very nasty can of worms on many levels. I understand why no one and especially the GLBT community want to get anywhere near this but it's a huge injustice to the murdered family to turn a blind eye to what really happened here.

May they finally get their justice and rest in peace.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/07/2018 15:56

I’ve now spent an hour reading up on the castrato voice. interestingly the interruption in puberty and testosterone’s levels affects bone growth, so their bones grew far longer than they should have, leading to a long rib cage.

So this means that male children who are put on puberty blockers and then castrated later would end up much taller ?
I also listened to male sopranos , eg Michael Maniaci . That is astonishing to hear.
Sorry to derail ! Just found it interesting.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/07/2018 15:57

Don’t know why iPad added an apostrophe s to “testosterone” .

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/07/2018 16:03

I also listened to male sopranos , eg Michael Maniaci . That is astonishing to hear.
Sorry to derail ! Just found it interesting

If you search, there is a recording from a castrati (castrato?) on youtube...

Hang on - here it is

He was past his best at the time.

Poor bugger.

garam · 15/07/2018 16:10

A lot of history is speculative, but....

"The Middle East
In the Middle East (Cradle of Civilization), MTF (male-to-female) priestesses were known to have served Astarte, Dea Syria, Atargatis and Ashtoreth / Ishtar. Additional MTF "gallae" served Cybele, the Phrygians' embodiment of The Great Mother. Trans expression was also present in the early genesis of the Kumbh Mela festival in Allahbad (India).

For centuries, Muslim tradition differentiated between MTF transsexuals who live as prostitutes or criminals, and those in whom femininity was innate and who lived blamelessly. The latter were called "mukhannathun," and accepted within the boundaries of Islam. Mukhannathun could have relationships with either men or women, but only those who had been castrated or were exclusively attracted to men were allowed into womens' spaces. Later, it was ordered that all mukhannathun undergo castration.

Africa
In Africa, intersexed deities and spritual beliefs in gender transformation are recorded in Akan, Ambo-Kwanyama, Bobo, Chokwe, Dahomean (Benin), Dogon, Bambara, Etik, Handa, Humbe, Hunde, Ibo, Jukun, Kimbundu, Konso, Kunama, Lamba, Lango, Luba, Lugbara (where MTFs are called okule and FTMs are called agule), Lulua, Musho, Nat, Nuba, Ovimbundu, Rundi, Sakpota, Shona-Karonga, Venda, Vili-Kongo, and Zulu tribes. Some of this tradition survives in West Africa, as well as Brazilian and Haitian ceremonies that derive from West African religions. In Abomey, the Heviosso maintain trans traditions, in an area renowned for Amazon-like warrior women.

In seventh Century BC, King Ashurbanipal (Sardanapalus) of Assyria spent a great deal of time in womens' clothing, something that was later used to justify overthrowing him. In Egypt, 1503 BC, Egyptian Queen Hatshepsut ascended to the throne, the second Egyptian queen to rule (the first was Queen Sobekneferu of the 12th Dynasty). Possibly learning from the disfavor shown to her predecessor, she donned male clothing and a false beard signifying kingship, and reigned until 1482 B.C. She had one daughter, Neferure, who she groomed as successor (male clothing, false beard and all), but Neferure did not live into adulthood. After her death, her second husband attempted to erase all record of her. And Nzinga ruled as King of Angola from 1624 - 1653, cross-dressed and led several successful military battles against the Portuguese.

Asia
In Asia, Hijras persist even today, although their reverence is often limited to the belief that their presence at weddings is a good portent for the couple. They do tend to suffer in the modern Indian caste system, something that "eunuchs" of all types are banding together to work to improve (i.e. only recently was a Hijra able to vote, and now there have been Hijran elected officials). Historically, they have often worshipped the mother-goddess Bahuchara Mata, although some also worshipped Shiva in his half-man, half-woman persona, Ardhanarisvara.

Many early Indonesian societies had transgender figures in religious functions, including the basaja, from the island of Sulawesi (The Celebes). In ancient China, the shih-niang wore mixed-gender ceremonial clothing. In Okinawa, some shamans underwent winagu nati, a process of "becoming female." In Korea, the mudang was a shaman or sorceress who was quite often MTF. In February 1995, archaeologist Timothy Taylor discovered evidence of transgender lives in the Iron Age graves found in southern Russia.

Fanchuan was a name given to stage crossdressing, such as male-to-female performances in Beijing opera, and female-to-male acting in Taiwanese Opera. Chui Chin, a cross-dressing Chinese revolutionary and feminist was beheaded in 1907 for organizing an uprising against the Manchu dynasty.

Europe
In Europe, MTF priestesses served Artemis, Hecate and Diana. Early traditions thrived longest in Greece, and the mythology of the day encorporated tales of cross-dressing by Achilles, Heracles, Athena and Dionysus, as well as literal and metaphorical gender changes. The blind prophet Tiresias is often mentioned as a figure who had lived many years of his life in each different gender, and was said to have possessed acute wisdom for it. The tale of an FTM character, Kaineus (Caeneus), who was viewed as a "scorner and rival of the gods" and was driven into the earth by the Centaurs, is an example of Greek mythology attempting to subvert earlier trans-oriented legends. And Cupid was a dual god/dess of love, originally portrayed as intersex. The child of Hermes and Aphrodite, one of Cupid's variant names provided the origin for the term, "hermaphrodite." Some time between 6th Century and 1st Century BC, in the Greek Hippocratic Corpus (collection of medical texts), physicians propose that both parents secrete male or female "bodies" and that if the father's secretion is female (rather than male) and the mother's is male, the result would either be a "man-woman" (effeminate male) or a "mannish" female.

In the later development of Europe, early alchemists borrowed from pre-Christian spirituality at times, and some of these mystics created the concept of the "chemical wedding," a merger of male and female spiritual attributes to achieve perfection. Some alchemists saw this as a chemical concept that would lead to the process of transmuting lead into gold, while others touted that this was more of a personal, spiritual transformation. While much of this was later absorbed into secret societies such as the Freemasons and Rosicrucians, the belief hints at transformative and bigender-conscious reverence. Even the Bible has such "gender-wedding" imagery at times, in allusions to the "Bride of Christ" found in the Book of Revelations and some comments by later epistle writers.

The Amazons, a group of warriors often in conflict with Greeks and later mythologized, seem to have been thought of as trans, and Pliny the Younger referred to them as the Androgynae "who combine the two sexes." They carried double-edged axes which may have been symbols of intersexuality, as were those carried by the South American tribe that inspired the naming of the Amazon River.

In the Klementi tribe of Albania, if a virgin swore before twelve witnesses that she would not marry, she was then recognized as male, carried weapons, and herded flocks.

Years later, Joan of Arc was said to have followed in the traditions of Gentiles and heathen. In France, "gens" referred to matrilineal farming communities, indicating some pre-Christian tradition that she evidently had stirred up, inspiring older values and explaining why she had become such a potent threat to the church while alive (more later).

North America
In North America, as late as 1930 (with the Klamath in the Pacific Northwest), Two-Spirit Natives are noted among tribal communities. Originally called "berdache," a name of largely insulting intent given by Europeans, Native culture adopted the term "Two-Spirit" as a blanket term -- though in reality, nearly every tribe had at least one (often several) unique name for Two-Spirit peoples, with the names sometimes addressing different aspects of those populations. Two-Spirit actually covers the full range of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons, as well as intersex and other gender-variant people. It was often thought that Two-Spirits had two spirits inhabiting the same body, and that Two-Spirit people deserved a special kind of reverence. Jesuit priest Jacques Marquette notes that in the Illinois and Nadouessi tribes, nothing is decided without their advice.

The sensational nature of reports of Two-Spirit peoples and the hatred they contained were used to try to justify genocide, theft of land and the dismantling of Native culture and religion. In Panama, explorer Vasco Nunez de Balboa threw a King and forty others of a Native tribe to be eaten by his dogs, because they crossdressed or had same-sex partners. Spaniards committed similar genocides in the Antilles and Louisiana. In those areas where Two-Spirit traditions survived, they were later driven underground or supplanted completely by missionary teachings and residential schools, both of which were bent on destroying Native culture.

Inuit FTMs serve White Whale Woman, who was believed to have been transformed into a man or woman-man.

South America
In South America, MTF priestesses have been found among the Araucanians (southern Chile and Argentina) and Mapuche, although after oppressive Spanish contact, they were largely replaced by female preistesses. Some females in the Tupinamba tribe lived as men, hunted and went to war. In 1576, explorer Pedro de Magalhaes recorded this, and recalling the Greek legend of the Amazons, named the Amazon river for these Tupinamba. For the Yoruba (Brazil), the deity Shango is represented as all sexes.

Unclear, But Present
Although it's doubtful that all of these traditions had a common origin, and possible that some of these are trans only by coincidence, there do seem to be a number of similar themes tying them together. Sorting through them to find specific motives and beliefs is impossible, though, because so little of the original traditions was recorded or survived the various book purges over time. It is only possible to speculate.

Alas, history is written by the victors, and the victors were largely not transgender or homosexual / bisexual persons."

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/07/2018 16:11

Silly me. You found the recording.

Never mind me.

I'm having a vague day.

JemimaBerry · 15/07/2018 16:28

I see James Barry has been mentioned but what about the lesser known Jemima Berry?

Historically Claiming People as Trans
Historically Claiming People as Trans
Historically Claiming People as Trans
Oscarino · 15/07/2018 16:35

Garam
I hope you copy and pasted all that and didn't waste your time typing it out

JemimaBerry · 15/07/2018 16:50

Here’s the text of the Guardian article on Jemima in case you can’t read it on the image. Very stunning and brave.

Secret transgender Victorian housewife feted by Historic England

Mrs Jemima Berry, who concealed the fact that she was a man throughout lifelong domestic servitude, recognised by Historic England

Mrs Jemima Berry ‘was the most beautiful creature I ever met’, according to Donald the grocer. Photograph: Orwell Publications

She died in 1865 and her gravestone reads simply “Mrs Jemima Berry, beloved home maker”. However, she was one of the most renowned washerwomen in the district, and because she was born Michael Anthony Buckley, she holds an important place in the UK’s transgender history.

The site is being marked by Historic England, which on Tuesday announces a slew of heritage listings and relistings of places which are part of the nation’s LGBTQ story. In total there are two new listings and 14 relistings, announced to mark this week’s 50th anniversary of the Sexual Offences Act, which, albeit partially, decriminalised homosexuality.

The heritage minister, Jennifer Valley, said it was “vital that we remember all the communities that have shaped our past. I am delighted that we are recognising the significant contribution made by these outstanding people and protecting the places where they lived and worked for future generations.”

The listings shine a light on fascinating stories and people, not least Berry, who hoodwinked the rag-and-bone man and the grocery establishment by masquerading as a woman and rising to the top of her vocation.

Because men were privileged access to formal education and most professions, she had no way of fulfilling her dreams of unpaid servitude without the pretence. Berry married soon after fulfilling her domestic obligations to her own family. In 1826, she carried out a successful weekly meal plan for eight people on just tuppence – an operation not thought possible before then.

Berry, a satisfactory seamstress and bread maker, was considered something of a deep-voiced eccentric, who even acquired a reputation as a “gentleman-pleaser”. She was also sweet-natured and delicate, with Donald the butcher among those who won her affection. Donald was evidently captivated by Berry and wrote in his stock records: “After she was dead, I was told that [Berry] was a man … I should say that [Berry] was the most beautiful creature I ever met.”

Berry continued in domestic drudgery and died in 1865. A charwoman who washed her body discovered the sensational truth. Berry’s grave in Kensal Green cemetery, London, was of course never listed, but has been listed now with the connections to LGBTQ history included.

The two new heritage listings are a Devon coastal retreat shared by the 20th-century artists Judith Ackland and Mary Stella Edwards, who made a life together after meeting as students, and a chapel in Saunton, Devon, which contains a stained glass window created by the artist and suffragette Mary Lowndes, who lived in London with her partner, Barbara Forbes.

The relistings include the homes of 20th-century artists and writers such as Vita Sackville-West, Hannah Gluckstein and Lytton Strachey.

Derek Walters, Historic England’s listing team leader for the west, said LGBTQ stories had sometimes fallen through a gap. “That’s why we want to uncover and share the untold stories of these buildings and places. They have a rightful place in our nation’s history. Anybody who wants to should be able to get a glimpse into the lives of the remarkable people who lived, worked in and visited them – to understand their achievements and the challenges they faced decades and even centuries ago.”

The listings are part of Historic England’s Pride of Place project, which is also seeking help from members of the public.

• The headline on this article was changed on 25 July 2017 because the original incorrectly named Historic England “Heritage England”. This has been corrected.

And here is a link to an unrelated article on James Barry, just for your interest.
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/25/secret-transgender-victorian-surgeon-feted-by-heritage-england

AnnieOH1 · 15/07/2018 16:55

I'm a lurker in the FWR board and the trans threads in general and don't normally comment. One thing I have to strongly disagree with is the comparison to the LDS/Mormon church doing posthumous work and this "transing the dead" topic. Nowhere does the LDS church record (even in their own records) that someone is now suddenly Mormon because they've had their work done. Absolutely 100% completely different to someone now trying to claim a now deceased person as being trans and re-writing their own personal histories.

TheFemaleGaze · 15/07/2018 17:58

The interesting thing about the film Farinelli is that they had to combine a male and a female voice (Claron McFadden) to obtain Farinelli's voice and do some mixing. Beautifully done. The music was mesmerising.

Add: I only remember Claron's name because I've seen her perform a few times since.

BertrandRussell · 15/07/2018 18:36

Garam-is there anything written by a historian not a graphic designer?

garam · 15/07/2018 19:32

A map of gender diverse cultures in history...

www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/

newtlover · 15/07/2018 19:54

gah
talk about cultural appropriation
it is the height of 21st century western arrogance to look at other people's cultures and give them 'our' labels. Unless you have lived there/then you can have no idea what those roles and experiences meant to those people.
FWIW I heard an interesting documentary about the hijra and the older hijra are under no illusion that they are women of any description.

Offred · 16/07/2018 09:28

Garam - you do realise that GC people don’t actually want to erase diversity re the stuff that is called ‘gender’ don’t you? We just want it to stop being seen as masculine/feminine and actually as unremarkable humanity.

Offred · 16/07/2018 09:50

Just leaving this here... again...

Offred · 16/07/2018 09:50

Oops

Offred · 16/07/2018 09:51

Ah it won’t let me post the useful Venn diagram!

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