Is it possible not to agree thatTWAW

[BertrandRussell]

ans not be transphobic? Because I think transwomen are transwomen and deserve all the rights and protections of the law, and should to live their lives peacefully, unharnessed and using any names or pronouns they wish. But I don't think they are actually, literally women. Incidentally, neither does the only transperaon I know well enough who is old enough to ask. If thinking that makes me transphobic is she transphobic too?

I'm no transphobe. But transwomen are women is utter nonsense.

OP I think it's really interesting you call being transgender a 'psychological quirk'

I've been mulling it over and I think I agree with you.

It's certainly a group of people with a shared characteristic that may or may not be due to the balance of brain hormones.

Other psychological quirks I can think of are being gay and being left handed. Both deviations from the norm. And both considered sinister in the past.

Society used to try and force left handed people to be right handed and gay people to be straight.

I believe left handed people should be free to use their left hand, gay people should be free to love and marry one another and trans women should be free to live their lives as women.

should be free to live their lives as trans women.

There, corrected it for you.

Left handed people are allowed to use scissors, daim. It's just not helpful for them to use right-handed ones.

And what The FemaleGaze said

left handed people ARE lefthanded
Gay people ARE gay
Trans women ARE NOT women

Just a slight difference then?

Crap anaologies

While we are on the subject. Quite funny

"The ballerina rose gracefully en Pointe and extended one slender leg behind her, like a dog at a fire hydrant"

Great we're getting somewhere. If this psychological quirk is acknowledged and accepted rather than being feared and ridiculed then it leads to a discussion on how these people should be helped and protected by society.

If we accept this psychological quirk there is a way forward for both GC feminists and trans women.

I have no problem whatsoever with trans people living 'as if' they were women, whatever the hell they think that means. But I won't be coerced into accepting their idea of womanhood as my own. Or anyone else's thank you very much.

daimbars

Yes. We've been very kind. We are willing, in many circumstances, to behave as if we believe they are women. We would like people to come to terms with their psychological distress. We've said that all along. But we don't have to believe what they believe.

FWIW I think psychological quirks are part of the rich tapestry of life and should be celebrated.

... and thank you very much but don't tell me I should not be afraid of people with penises who wish to do me harm.

Oh yes. We all have them. We all have personalities.Some of us have experienced mental ill health. And?

no not transphobic to not. beleive that everyone is entitled to beleive what they want. I. dislike. the diluting. of. the word and as the thing it represents is huriffic. trans woman are not biological women totally agree I think I've now agreed that. so. many times. do trans woman have needs in line with those of other woman yes, are there differences of course there are. Do we need to look at what defines who a trans woman is and is not Yes. society recognises that trans woman come under the needs of othrr woman for rights and services that does not make them the same thing.

If trans women were women, behaved like women and people perceived them to be women, we wouldn’t be having this conversation because nobody would fucking listen to them!!! They’d be shut down like women are normally shut down.

"If this psychological quirk is acknowledged and accepted rather than being feared and ridiculed "

But I neither fear nor ridicule trans people. I have repeatedly said that I want trans people to have all the rights and freedoms that anyone else has. I want them to be able to live their lives peacefully and unharassed.

I feel like Bertrand does. I want to be respectful and considerate, mindful. But I can’t quote mantas I believe are incorrect. I have a problem with the sport thing - I believe trans people should step down if they won’t compete with their birth sex. It’s not fair otherwise. I would hate a trans woman who was born a son of mine to be incarcerated and at risk of rape in a mans prison if she hadn’t committed an assault of any kind.

But I wouldn’t want a daughter of mine incarcerated with a trans woman committed of an assault of some sort against a woman.

But I don’t want to be a transphobe. Not at all.

I don’t like the posting of a picture trans woman in her swimming costume to mock her, even if it is from another public forum.

But I also hate the ‘die t*rf’ t shirts and pale blue and pink baseball bats of the San Francisco exhibition.

I love to see men in make up and dresses, boys in tutus and pink sandals, girls in boots and combats as much as the other way round. I like the end of gender controlling how we look, the jobs we do, the trees we climb and the false eyelashes we adorn ourselves with on a night out. It is horrible to mock people who wear clothes out of societal gender norms.

But I don’t want a person born male to feel they have to cut off their genitals or a person born female to feel they have to remove their breasts or either of those people to feel they have to take powerful puberty blockers to earn their chosen pronoun. I’d rather go straight to their chosen pronoun.

But I can’t say trans women are women and believe it. I don’t want to be a cis woman or labelled a t*rf, as much as I don’t want to be labelled a transphobe.

I would hate my hypothetical trans girl son not to be allowed to attend guides if she wanted to. But I would be unhappy at my hypothetical daughter aged 14 being forced into sharing a tent at guide camp with someone born into the opposite sex.

It is problematic that Bergdorf, who presents as an extremely attractive woman, and is attracted to men, can be accepted but a transwoman who is heavily male looking is jeered at and mocked. I hate the mocking of trans people. I don’t like the way some radfems are confronting the issues as well as not liking the way some trans women are behaving.

I hate the idea of sueing a woman’s shelter for not letting a male person work there.

But I also hate the idea of an abused trans woman having nowhere to go to escape the abuse.

i am very torn.

Urbanbeetler I'm on exactly the same page - the conclusion I came to is keeping an eye on the Equality Act exceptions and whether any organisation tries to dismantle them. These exceptions are in place to protect women and I believe the way things work at the moment is just fine.

FWIW I think sharing a picture of a trans woman in a swim suit to ridicule her is just as bad as the tee shirts you mention. This is where the whole debate has got out of hand - focusing on the actions of a few hardcore activists and thinking they represent the entire side.

the conclusion I came to is keeping an eye on the Equality Act exceptions and whether any organisation tries to dismantle them.

Dismantling them would be bad yes, but it is also a concern that organisations are not using them.

I know that some CCGs in the NHS use them, do up know of any other organisations who do?

Lemon I believe they are used in recruitment for certain sensitive job roles (such as rape crisis counsellors) where it is lawful not to open these vacancies to trans women.

Was women’s aid not consulting about removing those recruitment barriers? Have they come to a conclusion?

Lemon I don't know but I hope the consultation was extensive and was with the service users.

And it’s not going particularly smoothly for equivalent orgs in Canada for example, eg the suing of Vancouver Rape Relief. I believe it was our very own Snappity/ Gibberty who called VRR “odious” for not allowing transwomen to work there.

Are you confident that kind of harassment and targeting of orgs who apply the exemptions wouldn’t happen here? If so, why?

urbanbeetler

Your post describes pretty much where i am on this issue