#notalltranswomen

[BadasIwannaB]

An argument people often make when women voice their concerns about women only spaces:

‘Well hang on a second, I know quite a few trans women and they are just considerate nice people who just want to get on with their lives etc.’

Why can’t people see that this is spectacularly missing the point in just the same way as arguing ‘well NOT ALL MEN are [rapists/sexual harassers/misogynists/a danger to women]’?

I mean, I’m friends with a lot of men - they aren’t all bad. I’m even in an intimate relationship with one. But would that be a legit rebuttal to the arguments that women should have protected spaces without men? Clearly not! I’m not insulting my (or your) friends who are men, or implying men are all rapists etc. by agreeing that women should have protected spaces without men in them.

Similarly, then, why think that those who argue that these protected spaces should not be available to trans women must be assuming that all trans women are rapists/sexual harrassers etc., and must be saying something that’s terribly insulting to their (or your) friends who are trans women?

@GardenGeek you wrote.
Do you think a recognition of sex and gender, or delete as required would be an acceptable compromise for everyone, and do you support that? or have a different view on 'the solution,
I believe/recognise I'm male in body ie I'm incredibly strong and cursed with a man body. On board when at work I'm more naturally stronger than even other male colleagues and they ask assistance in heavy lifts. So with this in mind I'm inclined to believe trans female athletes have an unfair advantage and shouldn't compete against women athletes, I'm sure there are other examples.
I recognise the that gender is a social construct and should be something that is abolished. In the meantime though I see my gender as female/transfemale whatever the term is these days. Sorry I just hate everything that is expected of me as a man and could only watch in horror as my body changed in puberty l

@PrawnofthePatriachy you wrote.
Have you any thoughts on how reasonable voices like yours can make yourselves heard in the current climate?
No idea I'm stumped and to be honest still afraid to come out in home town in the north of Scotland as trans, I still get attacked now and again for being a gay male never mind letting on I'm trans. I prefer England as when there with work I can freely dress and present as trans, If I was living there i would find other people of same opinion and challenge what needs to be challenged.

Longtimelurkingtrans, pity. I didn't really expect anything ground breaking. We've been considering it for years without success. The transactivists are the ones being listened to in high places, where your moderate voice goes unheard. As has ours for a long time, though I sense the tide is turning.

Why else did Pride London throw it's toys out of the pram over 8 middle aged lesbians?

Why else are we enduring the current plague of trolls and GFs?

Why else the mahoosive increase in visitors to the FWR board in the past 2 years?

I do see what you mean actually Garden and agree that the way the debate stands at the moment, movement by either side seems impossible. I too am concerned primarily about preserving sex-based protections for women. I care less about who identifies as what. Let them. The problem we have now is that identitying as something is given way more meaning than it should- ie identifying as female is treated as changing sex when it shouldn’t.
Have also had lots of people disagreeing, raging, saying #weseeyou to me. It’s frustrating but i am fundamentally interested in moving the debate along and reaching a resolution and I know that this means movement from both sides and reframing previous arguments.

@Prawnofthepatriachy. Sorry I'm not much help there and I do worry the moderate trans suffers the backlash from the negativity the TRA's are creating, I can only continue to do what I in my life or workplace and that's support women against misogynist views or comments, the biggy that has been going about in mine is "no place for women at sea" and ensure that those types don't make women's' life a misery either through comments or unrealistic workloads. Hopefully wee things like this can bridge the gap with us all in real life away from the keyboard.

@GardenGeek. Yes in my case I feel my born sex and gender are 2 different things but I don't speak for the trans community and I'm sure there are some within it that would hate my position of born sex of male but gender of female.
If I understand sex based adjustments means women only spaces? Then yes i do as unfortunately some men are violent, rapists and in no way should any woman feel vulnerable just trying on clothing for as an example.

Snappity you said But that assessment is not being made accurately because it fails to recognise that trans women are women not men.

So all right, how can I tell? When I'm naked in a changing room, and a person is there who by all of the normal objective criteria we use, appears to be male, how can I tell they are actually a woman? For reasons of my own safety I would need to be able to do that right? So how?

Thank you.

Haha Garden I will try, but it’s exhausting....
I do agree with you that the issue is the conflation between gender and sex. This is why kids think a man can become a woman and literally change sex. Accepting this does not mean signing up to gender stereotypes. It means accepting that some males would prefer to be called Ms/Mrs and be called she etc. As you say, we won’t be able to stop this happening- we just won’t. However, accepting this doesn’t mean that sex-based protections cannot be fought for. Sex is not gender and we segregate based on sex, not gender. We are also attracted to people based on sex, not gender.

I think the reason TRAs are linking sex and gender is because they wish they were born the opposite sex and therefore don’t like hearing any reference to its importance because that reinforces that they are not in fact female.
All this would have been so much easier if people weren’t so fucking homophobic back in 2004 and we had just said anyone can marry anyone and yes you can have a certificate of gender recognition but it’s gender, not sex. But no, instead we had to pretend that people can literally change their chromosomes.

GardenGeek

it's seen as changing sex legally as our legal sydtem is sexed so therefore gender as to be tied to that for peoples rights at this moment in time. personally I feel that untangling this bit would give the best outcome for everyone. the fact that people now have absoluteist views on both sides now means that people will stop listening. the people that show some comprise will be the ones society will probably listen to. focusing on biology all the time will not convince people and neither will saying trans woman are biologically woman or no debating people

Haha why do you say 'no one will agree' - whats your position?

I'm one of them. scarey trans woman your mother warned you about. lol

I dislike gender because of what the associated sterotypes have meant for me...but am prepared to consider sex and gender as two distinct and valid social and legal constructs if it would help ..and as long as no one is forced to have a (binary ) gender ..would that be ok?

GardenGeek it was the cheapest solution at the time, see the pension exemptions in the original GRA for what they were aiming for.

I am only prepared to accept 'gender identity' as a belief and sex as observable fact.

The phenomena of personal beliefs which contrast or contradict reality must not be made law.

People who would prefer to be recognised by 'gender identity' need to face facts that their 'gender identity' is of no relevance to anyone else. People only care what sex you are. It is the simple facts of life.

So I do not agree with people being allowed to not disclose their sex when it is a matter of great importance to others.

All this would have been so much easier if people weren’t so fucking homophobic back in 2004 and we had just said anyone can marry anyone and yes you can have a certificate of gender recognition but it’s gender, not sex. But no, instead we had to pretend that people can literally change their chromosomes.

Quite.