#notalltranswomen

[BadasIwannaB]

An argument people often make when women voice their concerns about women only spaces:

‘Well hang on a second, I know quite a few trans women and they are just considerate nice people who just want to get on with their lives etc.’

Why can’t people see that this is spectacularly missing the point in just the same way as arguing ‘well NOT ALL MEN are [rapists/sexual harassers/misogynists/a danger to women]’?

I mean, I’m friends with a lot of men - they aren’t all bad. I’m even in an intimate relationship with one. But would that be a legit rebuttal to the arguments that women should have protected spaces without men? Clearly not! I’m not insulting my (or your) friends who are men, or implying men are all rapists etc. by agreeing that women should have protected spaces without men in them.

Similarly, then, why think that those who argue that these protected spaces should not be available to trans women must be assuming that all trans women are rapists/sexual harrassers etc., and must be saying something that’s terribly insulting to their (or your) friends who are trans women?

Sorry for the cat typing. That should read, able to go.

No

TRAs are certainly creating problems where before there were none. The honour system is well and truly broke, and all because of a bunch of screaming misogynistic homophobic narcissistic blokes who cannot stand women saying no to them,.

This, entirely.

And Snappity , Female people recognise male people (however those male people may 'identify' or present) and risk assess the situation they're in wherever they go. Female people should feel safe enough not to have to do that in sex segregated spaces. This is not about TW's being sexual predators. Rather, it's about the right of female people to safety, privacy and dignity - as it's always been. And, to be honest, the assumed requirement to repeat this is extremely tedious

Female people recognise male people (however those male people may 'identify' or present) and risk assess the situation they're in wherever they go. Female people should feel safe enough not to have to do that in sex segregated spaces. This is not about TW's being sexual predators. Rather, it's about the right of female people to safety, privacy and dignity - as it's always been. And, to be honest, the assumed requirement to repeat this is extremely tedious

But that assessment is not being made accurately because it fails to recognise that trans women are women not men.

Transwomen are men.

If transwomen were women - then why are they transwomen? They are not women?

Sex is biological reality. A fact.

Gender is feelz. Not a fact.

I am a woman. I prefer single-sex / no men places for women, because of the prevalence of male violence against women.

GardenGeek
You are mistaken. We are perfectly aware of what gender is. It is the social system designed to maintain the male dominance / female submission paradigm.
Except we have to find new words for the half of the population who are required to submit because the dominant class has appropriated all the words formerly applied to us, and now all we have left are the pejoratives they scream at us when we tell them no.

But that assessment is not being made accurately because it fails to recognise that trans women are women not men.

ODFOD

Judging by an increase of goadiness since the weekend, we are looking at another organised banning effort i think. There is great fury about the lesbian protest at Pride and someone must be punished. Just a warning. I definitely fell into the trap last night.

Oh don't try the race comparison yet again Snappy. Self-IDs appropriate black people more than enough as it is, and they're not even original about it. All of a sudden they're the ones who suffer daily microaggressions and ongoing discrimination that affects livelihoods and just getting through life day to day.

Is there anyone left they won't appropriate? It's both Blackface and Womanface now?🙄

Im a black woman with a trans SIL who transitioned 14 years ago, and a dear friend who hasn't fully transitioned as yet, lives as a female, and doesn't feel the need to aim to trample womens' rights as if we've all to move over as Self-IDs are the new ones that matter, and women suddenly don't.

Your example was cringe worthy in relation to white privilege that has a voice black people don't, and will never have in this society.

Paris Lees and similar relating their experiences as being akin to what black women experience is laughable. I doubt they've even dialogued with a black woman in their life, especially about racism and intersectionality.

Lily Madigan said black women are 'scary'. Imagine the frothing if we'd described Lily as 'scary'. Lily used the old 'black women are aggressive' trope (yawn) but I guess you conveniently managed to not notice that. So much for your 'example'

The black women I know including myself want to be left completely out of this appropriation nonsense thank you. Self-IDs can fight their own battles. They're not our allies, never have been never will be. They've no interest in us and would throw black women under the bus first.

Try finding an example that is actually logical in terms of comparison.

gardengeek

Gender = Sex Stereotypes.

Therefore opening up sex segreated spaces which are also 'gender' segregated causes problems.

1. They are no longer sex segregated and sex segregation exists for very compelling, recognised reasons: privacy, dignity, vulnerability to rape, pregnancy, etc.

2. If you go by sex stereotype in addition then you exclude gender non-conforming people from being able to use the facilities appropriate to their sex which is cruel. Gender non-conforming women are as much at risk and as entitled to the protections of sex segregated spaces as more gender conforming women.

3. Sex stereotypes are oppressive and offensive, feminists are trying to abolish them (gender) as a means to liberate people from oppression. Segregating by sex stereotypes reinforces those stereotypes.

4. Men who enjoy 'crossing' into female sex stereotypes for fun can make women feel threatened and degraded. It can be a sexual fetish acted out and women can be 'used' as unwilling props to acting out a sexist fantasy when they are in a vulnerable state.

No!

No!

No!

No!

I definitely fell into the trap last night

I imagine you were targeted as one of the most articulate and prolific users here

Indeed.

gardengeek

Because water flows down hill from the powerful who get to name everything and dominate everything to the powerless who are named and dominated, it will be 'gender' that gets saved if you legitimise it - if that's what suits the bepenised class, imo.

The only fight about recognising gender that's worth fighting, is the fight to recognise that gender is a set of sex stereotypes that are the means by which women are systemically oppressed by men.

Its a method of organisation and effective planning

It has it faults. Waterfall method is not very responsive to unforeseen developments. Agile methods work much better in military actions, for example.

Gende identity should not be legally recognised, because it's impossible to define. Gender non-conformity should be protected from discrimination. That's all.

No we aren't. People understand the difference between sex and sex stereotypes when it's explained to them.