Repeat after us: TWAW

[Floorplan]

Is this some kind of joke? No its real.

Ah, the good old "you're a man" accusation.

I'm guessing 93% of women are men then?

Flutterby 1891

My following post clarified that I meant women not men.

Ooh, I know! It was funny, though.

Any chance we can have a different thread for "Why I Don't Like Feminism"? It's really obnoxious.

What do you mean by 'man'?

I assumed you were a man. Nothing wrong with being a man, so it's not an accusation. I'm more interested in the fact you aren't doing anything to help tackle male suicide rates.

I'd be happy with that, although you'd all try and shut it down pronto.

I don't need to justify to you what I am or am not doing to help.

You, on the other hand, identify as part of a group which actively attempts to shut down events to discuss male suicide etc.

So, you're doing nothing. So all this is empty talk. You don't really care about male suicide rates at all, except as a handy weapons to distract and criticise feminists.

You, on the other hand, identify as part of a group which actively attempts to shut down events to discuss male suicide etc

Excuse me?

Of course you have to justify it. You're asking us to justify it. Don't be a hypocrite.

Back to the thread

I think that the was projected by an artist, not a trans organisation. It's Social Commentary.

very much enjoying your work

I was thinking the same thing about you lot. Your patience is extreme.

It's Social Commentary

that's interesting

in which case the artist may well be making a different comment to what we're been inferring here.

although I don't think Shon Fay is making a different point and isn't their magazine involved?

Thanks Plants. That is valuable information!

Reluctant

Ignore me. I am talking tripe It seems it's meant earnestly.

Women are women, trans women are trans women. Surely that’s the easiest way to simplify it? A trans woman will never be a woman, as sad as it is for them to be born into the wrong body, biologically that’s the way it will be. Forever. Trans women (and trans men) absolutely should have rights, but these should in no way affect the rights of women or men. Not sure how we can go about this but just telling us we should be quiet and allow our rights to be trampled all over is definitely not the way to go. Trans women in women’s professional sport is just one example of what needs to change.

So, flutter, you are doing fuck all about male suicide rates that you care so much about.

These women here are doing more than you about it, every single day, by raising awareness of how toxic masculinity is, and how gender stereotypes must be broken down. You should be ashamed.

Flutterby1891

Datun.

I doubt he could've raped you with impunity in reality.

Of course he could, dur. That's what the law means. I couldn't have him prosecuted.

And of course you're a man. We've heard this tedious stuff time without number, regularly. You are boring in your predictability.

It never ceases to amaze me how many lame blokes come on here and spout the same old nonsense.

And they all seem to fondly imagine that they're the first.

Or that they are the first to pretend they're not men.

It really, really isnt it much of an advert.

In fact flutter you should be fucking ashamed of distracting them from their campaigning for two days. Far side of fuck and all that.

You, on the other hand, identify as part of a group which actively attempts to shut down events to discuss male suicide etc.

Eh? Have we (checks diary..) nope. I don’t think ive closed down any events for prevention of Male suicide this week...

If you’d like to organise an event to talk about suicide prevention then go for it. It’s a very valuable thing to do. Why on earth would any feminist shut that down?

We will of course tell you that using Male suicide as a technique to dismiss violence against women is illogical, odd and just plain wrong, but I don’t think anyone is actively shutting down these events you’re organising.

You’re organising an event right? CALM are one such charity, and quite a lot of their stuff talks about how societal notions of masculinity prevent men from seeking help. That toxic masculine shit is also what feminists dislike. So actually, we are part of the solution, not the problem.

Spartacus

Thanks for that link. I hope it's OK to cut and paste the bits Flutterby might find relevant:

"Second perfect example: Male suicide rates.

We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma.
In all my years I have never seen women jump on those campaigns yelling ‘women commit suicide too, you know!!’ Or ‘what about women?’

Switch it over. Women’s marches. Pussy hats. IWD. Counting dead women. VAWG strategies. Women’s health screening. Women’s reproductive health. Women’s mental health. Rape campaigns. #metoo.

There is ALWAYS someone saying ‘what about men though?’ under all of those issues. It’s as sure as taxes and death.

Like a depressing new catchphrase nobody wants:

‘There’s only three things you can be certain of in life: taxes, death and some randomer yelling ‘what about men?’ every time you talk about women’s issues.’

‘Whataboutery’ comes from a place of misogyny. An arrogant, derailing technique used to respond to a campaign, video, research study, intervention, organisation or communication that screams ‘I don’t care about women, talk about men!!’
And the proof is in the pudding for me. Because when I do all those things with a focus on boys and men, I’m a fucking hero. But when I do all of those things and focus on girls and women, I’m a fat, ugly feminist cunt.

So I need to explain something else. This is not about equality. ‘Whataboutery’ has nothing to do with equality. It’s not about reminding us that men suffer too. Social issues aren’t equal.

When I write a tweet about women being murdered or raped, I didn’t forget men. I didn’t forget they could be murdered or raped. I didn’t accidentally miss them off my tweet. I simply CHOSE to talk about the experiences of females. It is not helpful, or clever, or promoting ‘equality’ to write to a researcher specialising in women’s studies and tell her in three paragraphs why she should focus on men.

It is not useful to ‘send a gentle reminder than men can get raped too, you know’.
If you’re reading this and you know you have done this to someone, please think twice before doing it again. It’s not helpful. It’s derailing.
We do not need to centre men in every conversation we have. Women and girls are valid entities, independent from men.
We need to get to a point where we can talk about women’s issues and get the same level of respect we get when we talk about men’s issues.
Until then, your ‘Whataboutery’ is unwelcome here"

Total cross post with pratchet there! But yeah, feminism is all for reducing the toxic masculinity.

radical feminism: actually quite good for men too.

Bowl

I think I became more of a feminist when I had my sons. I couldn't see the stereotyping and gendered expectations directed at me (a WOMAN) but I could see them all of a sudden when they were directed at my boys.

Bloody sad really; but there you go

Back to the thread

Good idea.
There's an obvious attempt to derail and the best way to deal with it is to ignore it/them/they/whatever and stick with the thread.

If Shon Faye had a hand in it, maybe it was supposed to read
'Repeat after us: transwomen are shifting constellations of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time' but they'd have needed a bigger building? Shame - I think we'd all have been ok with that. Presumably TW would have liked it (apparently that phrase is Shon's attempt at distilling ideas of feminist thinkers) and they could have left women out of it. We wouldn't have sulked at lack of inclusivity.