Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

[catkind]

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

Betraying transphobic feelings by founding a statement on the idea that being trans is inherently a bad, shameful or negative thing.

That's just silly. No-one's saying other people wouldn't want trans right because those rights are trans; you know, shameful, bad. Literally no-one is saying that. They're saying (well, I'M saying) that wanting to change your legal sex is a pretty specific right to want, and is fairly unique to.... well.... trans people.

Are you "othering" disabled people when you put a box on your monitoring form saying "Do you have a disabililty?". Um... no.

Your point might make sense if disabled people were attempting to claim to be 'able bodied' and decrying 'literal violence' if anyone suggested they may be disabled. As they are not I don't think I understand your point at all.

That's nonsense. Anyone cares to advance search they will prove you wrong. I CBA right now, but I think tea will have been spat on keyboards at that.

I encourage anyone who feels like it to do that. Honestly, I'm absolutely not the mockery type. Could not be more confident in that.

Your point might make sense if disabled people were attempting to claim to be 'able bodied' and decrying 'literal violence' if anyone suggested they may be disabled. As they are not I don't think I understand your point at all.

It was in response to a poster who wanted to know how we would be able to tell the difference between the impact of things on natal women and trans women. I said we would do it the same way as we collect data on other different groups; such as BAME, disability, sexual orientation etc. A poster asked if asking someone their trans status on a form was "othering" them, and I said it would not be, because it isn't "othering" when we ask about any other characteristic on a monitoring form.

Not all of them though, eh Rat?

Better than none though Eresh.

If you say so.

If there are advantages to changing your sex you can bet your life that individuals and organisations will exploit the laws...

Rat you think that having been intimately acquainted with a cross dresser is 'better' than not having been intimately acquainted with one?

So you think you are better than 'us'. Makes sense.

If there are advantages to changing your sex you can bet your life that individuals and organisations will exploit the laws...

It's a shame that any otherwise innocuous potential loopholes have been so comprehensively broadcast really, isn't it.

So you think you are better than 'us'. Makes sense.

What an interesting leap to make. If you're really determined to insult me you needn't bother to try and twist it out of something I've said, just come straight out with it.

Why do you think trans people want to change legal sex? They feel it advantages them relative to where they were prior...

There is no rule that says you have to be disadvantaged in the first place in order to try and advantage yourself...

The whole thing is about considered which people need to be advantaged and why and whether the proposed change will lead to exploitation (already advantaged people further advantaging themselves).

Rat you think that having been intimately acquainted with a cross dresser is 'better' than not having been intimately acquainted with one?

So you think you are better than 'us'. Makes sense.

It's all a bit desperate really.

What an interesting leap to make. If you're really determined to insult me you needn't bother to try and twist it out of something I've said, just come straight out with it.

It is not a leap, when you literally just said it!

Rat, there are entire industries devoted to finding loopholes in laws... you think that actually keeping loopholes out of the media is better than making good laws in the first place?

That’s an interesting position TBH...

It was in response to a poster who wanted to know how we would be able to tell the difference between the impact of things on natal women and trans women. I said we would do it the same way as we collect data on other different groups; such as BAME, disability, sexual orientation etc. A poster asked if asking someone their trans status on a form was "othering" them, and I said it would not be, because it isn't "othering" when we ask about any other characteristic on a monitoring form.

Ok - so you are proposing data gathering forms should always have a box for 'natal sex' and one for 'identified gender', such that (assuming the person filling the form in was honest), it would be possible to identify transwomen and natal women as distinct groups?

My understanding is that some in the trans 'camp' would consider that a violation of the 'TWAW' principle/article of faith. Is this understanding wrong in your view?

They feel it advantages them relative to where they were prior...

Is this really what you think? It doesn't advance them, it levels them. It protects their right to a private life - the right upheld by the European Court of Human Rights.

You and I need not confess to our employer some intimate and significant detail of our personal and medical history, not least knowing that we live in a society where that particular detail often leads to discrimination. Trans people do have to expose that in situations where their birth certificate is required. They do not have the tools to protect that aspect of their private life without the ability to obtain an altered version of their birth certificate.

This is not them achieving an advantage, this is to redress the disadvantage that they have in virtue of being trans. Do you really not understand that??

It is not a leap, when you literally just said it!

Rat also doesn't think she has ever openly mocked someone's concerns. Even though she just called mine "hyperbolic".

Did you just blame women talking about their concerns for the future behaviour of violent men?

How come so many sex offenders are suddenly changing sex? Are they real women, or have they been talking amongst themselves about the benefits?

It is not a leap, when you literally just said it!

I don't even know where to start; the Biff and Kipper books are good I hear.

Did you just blame women talking about their concerns for the future behaviour of violent men?

No.

Another one needs Biff and Kipper.

Your gaslighting is a thing to behold Rat.

Yes, that’s why I said ‘advantages relative to where they were prior’ - disadvantaged...

Exploitation is people who are already advantaged using the law to gain even further advantage thereby creating inequality out of laws designed to create equality...

Come on...

If someone is disadvantaged the to be equal they need to be advantaged/advanced and often (but not always) those who have greater advantage need to be disadvantaged in order to bring the two groups level

Not 'openly' mocking womens concerns either?

My understanding is that some in the trans 'camp' would consider that a violation of the 'TWAW' principle/article of faith. Is this understanding wrong in your view?

I don't have much to do with the "trans camp" I'm afraid. I think it's fine to ask the question, and to give the options "yes, no, prefer not to say" for answering.