What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Love the idea of 90/130/twelfty cubicles for each gender identity - imagine busting for a wee and trying to find the right cubicle in time.

I reckon we women go the extra mile here, find a few more genders, make it a round 200?
Then several hundred of each gender lobby for their own :- toilet, prison wing, refuge, housing, sports teams in every single sport available, Oscars, hospital, air time on tv, etc etc.
Proper mad but funny.

I believe that trans women are female but their sex was wrongly assigned a birth.

No. Just no.

Assign me a mark for my essay, a seat on the plane, a place in the queue buying kids shoes at Clarks.

My birth sex was not assigned, it was NOTED after a cursory glance, same for everyone bar the vanishingly small number of intersex female and intersex male babies.

My birth weight was also NOTED after plonking me on the scales. Why does no-one ever speak of the weight they were 'assigned' at birth. More word salad, that's why.

Herja I totally understand your concern. I’m sure Snappity will be back shortly to explain how her plan will ensure the privacy she accepts you are entitled to.

Well, an inference of a person's reproductive role can be drawn from their genitals, and I don't think even Snappity is saying otherwise. They seem to be saying that reproductive role is not what makes a person male or female, and is of negligible significance. Perhaps newborns should just be recorded as "human" until the nature of their internal essence becomes clear when they are a little older.

Lemon it's so nice to see that you and Snap are finding common ground.

Yy it’s really positive
Although I can’t take much credit really, it’s mostly Snappity who has done the work to find common ground. But I think it’s so important to recognise and pin down the points we agree on rather than being at loggerheads.

That might mean a more private space away from both trans women, butch lesbians and any masculine women

Snappity, in my opinion you should be banned from MN for that statement - who are you to say who's sufficiently 'female'. Not reporting because I want that post to stand so everyone can see exactly what your views are.

Why would I want space away from "masculine" women? If you want a space for only women who are at that very moment performing femininity it's called a makeup counter.

That might mean a more private space away from both trans women, butch lesbians and any masculine women

Why would a woman want a space away from ‘butch lesbians’ (how charming) or ‘masculine’ women. A lesbian of any appearance is no threat to me. Men are however a threat to her as they are to me because of our biology.
She’s a woman. We are both women, the woman’s sex segregated space is for us.

Threat is not clothing or hair, it’s the biology of the people you share the space with.

I suspect Snappity won't come back to answer those questions.

Quite. I don't care how butch a woman looks. I care if you have a penis that can be shoved in me against my will again.

Shows the thought process though doesn’t it?

Woman = swishy long groomed hair, certain clothes, certain behaviours, certain makeup etc. God alone knows what my scraped back hair, jeans and lack of make up mean to people who think like that. Clearly I’m failing at womaning.

This is the stuff we have been fighting against for years. A woman is a woman is a woman. Whether she’s straight or gay, in a ball gown or a boiler suit. Fertile or infertile. A mother, or not. She’s still a woman. None of the above options are ‘lesser’ ways of being a woman.

It’s not a performance, or a costume. It’s biology.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the assertion that it's GC feminists who introduced biology to the definition of "sex"

If we are having 200 seperate made up genders and the toilets appropriate for each, can I suggest we lobby for some assigned solely for ‘four letter acronym denoting women who don’t want penii in their private spaces’?

I’m currently wearing men’s sweatpants cut into shorts and some fake crocs that my household calls my ‘dog shit shoes’. I’m definitely failing at womanhood, by performative gender standards.

I'd like to differentiate between segregated spaces where people see each other's genitals, and those where they don't. If people can see your genitals in a bathroom, then usually there is something going very badly wrong unrelated to gender. Urinals can be screened off behind a door, and you can have either a bunch of cubicles with a shared bathroom or number of other large companies have lots of unisex cubicles.

Changing facilities can be unisex, much like our local swimming pool. There are small and large private cubicles, where you don't need to see other peoples' genitals, nor can they see yours. If a bunch of you want to go into a small-ish shared space, you can. Your gender or sex does not matter.

Women's refuges have the legal option of excluding transwomen, and there are other instances where that seems proportionate. I have a great deal of sympathy for nude bathers not wanting to see people with different genitals or, have people so equipped seeing them. I don't have an easy solution to that.

If you are going to discriminate by chromosomes, you have a real problem. Some people who transition "pass," and some people's gender expression may make people think they are the opposite gender, and there is no way to differentiate between such people without checking everyone, and that's not really feasible.

That might mean a more private space away from both trans women, butch lesbians and any masculine women

That's ridiculous. Biological woman do not need to be separated from other biological women because of how they present. They only need separating from men. Lesbians and butch women as you so rudely put it are biologocal women. Trans women are not.

no way to differentiate between such people without checking everyone, and that's not really feasible

Because that's taking the assumption that people will just ignore the law anyway. Exactly the sort of people woman do not want to share space with. But at least it gives women the right to challenge.

DadJoke
I'd like to differentiate between segregated spaces where people see each other's genitals, and those where they don't

Thats nice for you, but it ignores the reality of being female.
For example, sudden period flooding, or how in the UK alone, over 600 women miscarry every day.
When they do they are often in public and dash for the nearest women only space to deal with it.
And someone is left with blood and a dead baby to clean up.

How about men just quit pretending that women 'discriminate by chromosomes', while at the same time insisting you are kept protected from the nasty dangerous things in life like having to look at our hair.

Again with the insistence that women can't tell people are male without checking their chromosomes. You know as well as we do that that's not the case so why lie?

thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html
Here's a list of genders, fairly current. Let's add what we want.
So I want a female but short hair dyed purple gender. I want to call it purgender f.

If we are having 200 seperate made up genders and the toilets
appropriate for each, can I suggest we lobby for some assigned
solely for ‘four letter acronym denoting women who don’t want
penii in their private spaces’?
Crack on

The idea that humans can’t tell each other’s sex without chromosome testing makes me laugh everytime.

If it were true, the human race would’ve died out years ago.

Even my dog can tell the difference between human males and human females. Pretty sure she’s not deciding based on hairstyles or footwear.

This may piss people off - I hope not, but even the most butch or 'masculine' women have a vibe or essence about them that makes you know them to be female. To me it feels maternal and tender.
Male vibes are more brusque, invasive and abrasive.
Stereotyping I know, it could be down to socialisation or biology, but I couldn't GAF how butch a woman is. A woman is a woman.

Yes there's something about women that makes us different from men.
Even if we don't perform femininity.

dadjoke

That communal space - it’s important it’s kept single sex. It’s a safety thing.
Example. Me, with a newborn in a pram. I need to pee. I can’t pick up newborn and pee with them in the cubicle with me because frankly that’s a juggling act too far but also because I’ve had a c section. So baby stay in pram. However neither can I take the pram into the cube with me because it’s tiny. I also don’t feel comfortable leaving the pram outside and shutting the door.

So - and I’ve seen literally hundreds of mums and grannies and childminders and nannies do this - i wedge the pram in the door, leave it open and go piss.

Every other women in that communal space can see me but they maintain a sort of ‘not looking’ protocol.

I could not, and would not, be able to do that in a unisex area like you describe. It’d be dangerous.

Other things I’ve done in the public area of loos that I wouldn’t want a man around to see.

Rinse out my tights which have blood on
Change my tights which I’ve ripped
Change clothes
Comfort a woman who has started what turned out to be a miscarriage
Ask if anyone had a spare tampon/other sanpro
Take off my short which some twit had spilt coffee on and rinse it and dry as best I could under the hand dryer.

That communal space is just as important as the cubicles to have as single sex.

For men too - I’m fairly sure men don’t want women around their urinals either. But for women SAFETY is increased exponentially by having that single sex space.

It’s not just about ‘places you’re naked.’ It’s aboit places you’re vulnerable.

Every aid agency on the planet acknowledges that women are vulnerable in sanitary situations and presses for single sex provision.