What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

So Snappity, who decides if a woman genuinely has PTSD or can we all just self ID as having it? In which case all women could just demand to use the women only toilets leaving the original toilets just for trans women. Which means there is actually a third space. So you do agree with the idea of third spaces for trans women. Well that's progress.

We could have a space for everyone who believes sex is a social construct, and make it look pleasantly church-like with fake stained glass windows.

(They identify as real stained glass.)

The exemptions in the EA are a joke. To me, the "legitimate aim" is the maintenance of same-sex provision and the "proportionate means" of achieving this is to bar all people not of that sex.

Agree totally. There are not many spaces we have as single sex. The ones we do have are single sex for a reason. That reason is enough, proportional etc.

Love the idea of 90/130/twelfty cubicles for each gender identity - imagine busting for a wee and trying to find the right cubicle in time. There’ll be more puddles than the umbrella scene in Singin In The Rain.

Turning the men's into gender neutral is absolutely the answer to this. And keeping biological women's spaces separate. This way men, trans men, transwomen and women can use the gender neutral facilities.(once know as the men's.) And biological women and trans women's can use the women's toilets if they wish. Then everyone is safe. Perfect solution.

I've never been diagnosed with ptsd. Because, well, I don't have it.

I have been raped and I have been invasively sexually assaulted (separate occasions) though and I don't trust being in close proximity, alone, with someone I don't know with a cock. So would I be eligible for a seperate space Snappity? Or would I just have to suck it up? When in your mind does it become acceptable to want a seperate space? Is my DD allowed a seperate space because of what happened to me, or does she need to wait to be attacked herself first for that to be ok?

I'm not happy with the expectation that I should put up and shut up to keep a vocal minority happy. Everyone has the right to feel safe; I am part of that fucking everyone, I get to feel safe too. A third space seems a pretty obvious way of doing that.

Transwomen are not women. They have been socialised as men from birth, they have lived as men. They are a subset of men, not women.

To me, the "legitimate aim" is the maintenance of same-sex provision and the "proportionate means" of achieving this is to bar all people not of that sex.

YY. And it's worded in such a woolly way, that I think at some point we can make a case that it is indeed proportionate and legitimate to safeguard women's privacy and dignity. Of course if anyone gave a fuck about what women want we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It’s great that everyone, including Snappity, agrees in principle for segregated spaces for women who have issues sharing with transwomen.

I'm still not clear who we have to submit our claim to, when we have PTSD. OR how often. and do we have to submit a new claim for every different space?

Why is this form of gatekeeping acceptable, and not the one we prefer which is based on biology?

I'm not happy with the expectation that I should put up and shut up to keep a vocal minority happy. Everyone has the right to feel safe; I am part of that fucking everyone, I get to feel safe too.

Absolutely. And I will never put up and shut up about it. Never. Women absolutely have the right to feel safe and men don't get to decide what it is we should do / have to make them feel better / validate them. Not at my expense. No fucking way.

Maybe Snappity can help with how she imagines her plan working UpstartCrow?

I would imagine that, as with a GRC, we wouldn’t need to worry about women falsifying their PTSD in order to access these spaces because I believe that never happens? So we can assume hat all women applying do indeed have PTSD, would that be right Snappity?

transwomen can use the women’s toilets if they wish
So what would be the point in having a women’s only space if people who may have penises can use them if they wish?
What if my “wish” is to have no penises in women only spaces?
Is my wish less important?

Anyway why should women be singled out for having PTSD etc. So only those ones can use the women's facilities. It's almost like they'll have a big flashing sign above their head saying 'looking at me, victim of assault, PTSD, etc etc', as others see them walk into those facilities. I've been assaulted on numerous occasions. Raped once. All unreported. Am I forced to go to the doctors / go through a legal process now in order to use the facilities for my biological sex? Or do I get to self ID this, like the men want to do in order to infiltrate women's safe spaces? Utterly nonsensical.

transwomen can use the women’s toilets if they wish

Sorry. I meant transmen. Typo.

Yes, hopefully Sbappity will address the issue of women being compelled to make disclosures in order to access the segregated space that Snappity agrees they are entitled to.

We need to consider both sets of rights to privacy, safety, dignity,

I understand that transwomen don’t want to be singled out from women as they perceive this violates their rights to privacy, safety and dignity.

And some women (likely a majority looking at the surveys) believe that separation from transwomen is needed in order to have privacy, safety and dignity.

How to grant both groups human rights when we have diametrically opposite wants/beliefs? There must be a third way that is not gender neutral.

We can solve this

Lemon it's so nice to see that you and Snap are finding common ground.

I fear for the for the idea of women being able to Self ID their PTSD, though, as Snap pointed out on another thread that people could falsely self ID for personal gain.

Absolutely Elletorro.

We are getting close to solving it now that everyone agrees that many women need privacy from transwomen and transwomen need privacy from men, and both sets are entitled to privacy and dignity.

But again, what if there's nothing to disclose? I have been raped and vaginally assaulted. I did not report these, I do not have ptsd. According to Snappity this would mean I'm not eligible for use of a single sex space? I would hate to be anywhere with my knickers around my ankles knowing that there might be a man in the same space (and I do think that transwomen are men) but I don't have a medical issue because of it, so I should put up with it.

Sorry, I was basically saying the same thing on repeat. People think that worrying about where people piss is pathetic, but it's really not to me.

I would be in favour of there being a third option, I would be in favour of there being a womens loo and a unisex loo. I am not in favour of only unisex loos or of gender segregated loos.

I went out on Saturday, first time in a few years, I was with friends and was relatively sober. It was to an event billed as family friendly (in the day time anyway). Before we left a man ran up to me, grabbed me by the throat and told me I needed to go home with him. I hid in the ladies loos for a while before leaving, as I have done on many occasions over the years. I DON'T WANT a unisex space - I want somewhere I can feel comfortable half naked, somewhere I can hide from a man if I need to. Somewhere that only women are allowed in and men will be questioned if they go in there.

But just for now, I'll stop complaining about loos.

I believe that trans women are female but their sex was wrongly assigned a birth.

How does this work....

So when the stork brings the baby to mum and dad's doorstep, the 'sex assignment fairy' waves their wand and at that moment the baby has a transformation. Inside every cell, suddenly the sex chromosomes develop and become either XX or XY. Simultaneously, the flat piece of skin that is between their legs like a doll morphs into either male or female genitals.

Sadly sometimes the sex assignment fairy is so busy, mistakes are made - perhaps shaking the wand twice in an anti-clockwise direction when it should have been an up, a down and a tap.

And that is the story of how sex is assigned at birth and how sometimes it can be 'wrongly assigned'.

Is that right snappity?

Before we left a man ran up to me, grabbed me by the throat and told me I needed to go home with him. I hid in the ladies loos for a while before leaving, as I have done on many occasions over the years

You just reminded me of a time when a man grabbed hold of my breast in a nightclub, and then punched me in the face when I protested. I ran to the ladies and hid there too. Yes he could have gone after me there, but he was a lot more likely to be challenged for doing so. We fucking need that space. Its not up for grabs for men to take over.

Having read the thread, I am in agreement that changing men's loos/changing rooms into the 'gender neutral anything goes' place is sensible. Nobody (over about ten years old and accompanied by their mother) with a penis should be in the ladies loos/changing rooms etc.

I believe that trans women are female but their sex was wrongly assigned a birth

I think what Snappity means here is that medical professionals aren't always adept at recognising the differences between male and female penises. Seriously

think what Snappity means here is that medical professionals aren't always adept at recognising the differences between male and female penises. Seriously

I don't think I have ingested enough word salad to be able to get that.

So would snappity prefer it if on the birth cert it just said 'penis' or 'vulva' with no inference of male or female reproductive role?