What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

I find it both maddening and utterly fucking scary that so many people do not understand the concept of consent. It’s writ large all over these boards and all over the Internet, and God help any woman who is forced to share space with any of these people.
It gets said on here often, and maybe it should be said more, if someone does not respect boundaries and does not understand the word no, they are not a safe person to be around.
No is a complete sentence. It is not the start of a negotiation.

Great summary, Baumederose

They understand consent, they just don't think women have the right to it.

Hoteocker

Rocker!

UpstartCrow "They understand consent, they just don't think women have the right to it."

There is truth in this, imo ... it is the expression of Rape Culture and it is further fuelled by their consumption of pornography.

This sums things up rather well ...

UpstartCrow
They understand consent, they just don't think women have the right to it.

Absolutely agree. As well as thinking that women's boundaries are up for constant negotiation. As a challenge.

I don't consent for members of the opposite sex to see me naked when I enter a FEMALE only space.

Is't it a crime to have somebody look at you naked without your consent? I looked online and I could't find one. It probably isn't. Can't you see how women are already under threat from creepy guys just looking at them - again without consent!

How about consent not to have somebody expose themselves to you which is still a crime
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/66

I know you think we're probably being silly hysterical ladies but every woman I know has had at least one incident of indecent exposure (most when they were children.)

By your logic a woman in a swimming pool with unisex changing rooms has 3 options:

1.Submit to unisex rules
2. Not go swimming
3. Object and withhold acceptance of rules

Can you see how the rules become a barrier to equality of opportunity for some women?

Ahh, Elletorro, I'm so glad you're here! Yes, precisely, those are the three options aren't they.

Yes, yes I can see how the rules could become a barrier to equality.

But that is not the question I have posed. The question I was asking was is it appropriate to describe not wanting to share a unisex changing room over which you have no ownership as "not giving consent"?

Because in my opinion the only reason the word "consent" is being brought into this is so that you can tug on the feminist heartstrings surrounding consent and bodily autonomy, because "consent" is not something that can either be withheld or conferred by someone who does not control that body or space.

It's the naivety that leads people to imagine that no person declaring themselves trans could possibly be any threat to women if allowed to enter their safe spaces that gets me.

And that's leaving aside (as these naive folk repeatedly do, despite the fact we keep telling them) the predatory men who would abuse self-id

NOTE to naive people: they do NOT have to do anything other than take advantage of the fact that we would be unable to challenge men who still looked exactly like men. Don't believe that would happen? Look at the Stonewall definition of 'trans'.

RatRolyPoly To consent means to give permission or to agree ... so consent is absolutely the correct word to use.

Women are saying "No!" That one word is enough. It is not negotiable.

the only reason the word "consent" is being brought into this is so that you can tug on the feminist heartstrings surrounding consent and bodily autonomy,

You sound like an MRA - as if women's boundaries are just flimsy excuses that we pull out to make men look bad.

A man once forced his way into the toilet in a restaurant when I was younger. The lock was broken and I'd wedged one foot up against it as far as I was able but when I got up, he got in. He attempted to push me up against the sink and groped me. Later I wished I'd been brave enough to scream the place down but instead I just wriggled out of the way and dived for the door.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a pretty minor example of harassment and one I'm sure many other people have encountered.

I'm also sure that a number of people will tell me that segregated toilets wouldn't stop men like this which is probably true. However, his opportunities would be limited. This was a single unisex cubicle in a small establishment: he wasn't obviously following me into the ladies. These days I'm less concerned for myself, but I certainly don't want male bodied persons in changing rooms etc with my teenage daughter. I know the vast majority will do no harm, but it's not really the point.

It's no good either saying "just report it". I didn't (I did all the self -blame) and I doubt much would have come of it if I had done.

Yes .. "consent and bodily autonomy".

I hope RatRolyPoly is not saying that females have no right to bodily autonomy and have no right to protect their bodily autonomy from unsolicited male attention.

So Dadjoke, you have a daughter, is she at secondary school? If so are you fine with a boy/boys who say they are trans changing with her at school for PE/swimming? If she is uncomfortable about it and voices concerns to the teacher are you fine with her being called transphobic or bigoted? Most parents wouldn't be ok with that.

(And FWIW when my DH took my DD swimming up to about the age of 7, of course he took her to change with him in the gents because he's not an arsehole and knows that it's his choice to take his child swimming so why should women have to put up with a man in their space to protect his precious child from seeing male genitalia?)

Rat

I understand that the term consent is loaded.

However we either accept the rules or don’t. In this circumstance you can say we consent to be governed by the rules.

It is emotive for many women because changing rooms are where we are naked and vulnerable. So consent is a valid choice of vocabulary.

I’m glad we agree about equality of opportunity.

Now how do we achieve equality of opportunity for transwomen who may also want to avoid unisex spaces?

What I do not consent to is the redefinition of "woman" to mean females and sundry males.
I don't see how the spaces in question became unisex - we were talking about women's spaces. Not spaces owned by women but spaces designated as being for women.
So what is in question is women's right to define the boundaries of their class.
It's that terra nullius colonialist bullshit again - females are already occupying the word woman - its full, there's no room for males

RatRolyPoly To consent means to give permission or to agree ... so consent is absolutely the correct word to use.

Funnily enough I did look at the dictionary definition before starting out on this line of reasoning. What I'm saying is, I can't give permission for someone else to touch your body. If I say, "no, it's okay, I consent, you can touch her", the word "consent" is utterly meaningless there; it just makes it sound like that person has a greater authority to now touch your body. But they don't have that authority at all. Just like some users of a toilet don't have anything approximating "consent" over who else uses it.

I hope RatRolyPoly is not saying that females have no right to bodily autonomy and have no right to protect their bodily autonomy from unsolicited male attention.

Er.... I'm not.

Elletorro you've skipped around between a couple of different things there to defend the use of the word. Honestly, I don't mind it being used all that much, but when people use it to shut down other posters because anyone questioning the authority of other service-users to decide who else gets to use those facilities is accused of not respecting boundaries, or thinking consent is negotiable. It's a huge and transparent attempt to use a feminist trump-card to silence opposing voices.

I understand that the term consent is loaded.

Yes. It is. Let's not cheapen it, because it deserves to command respect.

However we either accept the rules or don’t. In this circumstance you can say we consent to be governed by the rules.

Yes, we accept the rules. We consent to the rules, or we don't.

It is emotive for many women because changing rooms are where we are naked and vulnerable. So consent is a valid choice of vocabulary.

And this is where you've skipped to something else to defend the point. In the last line we were talking about whether or not one consents to use a space as per the rules of the proprietor, but now we're talking about the "being naked and vulnerable" of the situation, which is not the moment at which one either consents or does not to "the rules". That is the moment you decide to use the space, which is invariably long before the moment you're naked.

RatRolyPoly your response above makes no sense whatsoever.

"Just like some users of a toilet don't have anything approximating "consent" over who else uses it."

Space designated for females is space designated only for females. it is non-negotiable. There is no debate here.

Space designated for females is space designated only for females. it is non-negotiable. There is no debate here.

It's for whoever the owner of that space says it's for.

It's for whoever the owner of that space says it's for.

...within the law, obviously. Hopefully that goes without saying.

RatRolyPoly answer this for me please.

Why are you suggesting that females should never be able to have any safety, privacy or dignity away from unsolicited male attention?

Why are you suggesting that females should never be able to have any space exclusive to themselves away from any males?

Jacky.

Oh Jacky, Jacky, Jacky.

I am not suggesting either of those things.