What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Unisex for men, transpeople and handmaidens/women who don't mind or see a difference between sexed bodies and separate Women Only for women who want/need sex segregation.

This. Wish I'd thought of putting this in the GRA consultation which I've already done. Writing to my MP next so I'll make this point then.

There is nothing stupid in defending single sex spaces which I do - but trans women are women.

Only if you are utterly deluded.

Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists

Now you sound utterly ridiculous. And even more deluded. Imo.

Doctors? Scientists? Nobody cares about what they've historically had to say about biological sex. The idea that biological sex exists was invented by GC feminists in 2017 just to spite trans people, clearly.

There are some fish which can change sex, perhaps the third space could just be a big tank of water ...

If you don't want to accept that, and equally won't accept private, secure unisex, you are saying that you don't care about my protection. Or how do you propose to protect me given that a male body is a threat and can trigger a flight response that means I would be excluded further from some aspects of public life?

There is nothing wrong with secure unisex so long as trans women and intersex women are not treated differently to other women. But segregation on the basis of biological elitism is abhorrent. Segregation on genetic elitism is even worse. Those matters of utter human rights principle must underpin whatever we choose. Never, ever, under any circumstances, should people's rights or treatment depend upon their genes. Never. I am repeatedly shocked when people here say that genetics (or reproductive sex which is code for the same thing) should matter. I find that chilling and it is incredibly dangerous. As soon as we go there, we open a door to discrimination on genetics and that really, really is very bad news. In fact the single biggest gap in the Equality Act in my opinion is that genetics should be a protected characteristic to outlaw discrimination on the basis of genes.

On the face of it, whether or not someone has a penis seems more reasonable as a basis but where does that leave someone with breasts, a female frame and manner, but a penis, albeit a redundant one because of the effects of oestrogen? Again, individuals like that belong in women's spaces. If those spaces can be improved with cubicles, great, that's the answer, but discriminating against a group of women because of their genes is utterly abhorrent to me.

Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on here. Or anywhere actually.

So you keep saying. No one is telling you not to share a space with whoever you like, we are saying we need women only spaces but for some reason you cant hear that and don't respect it.

I would support the idea of the men's facilities becoming the gender neutral one, rather than the women's.

This could be something that M&S, and other businesses with changing areas, could easily implement.

Re. toilets. A screen round the urinal area might be a cost-effective solution

Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists

Okay. There are little tweety birds outside the window. You can buy peas. Lots of people have pets. Damselflies are getting jiggy in ponds.

But biological sex is apparently a construct in the minds of GC feminists.

Where the hell do some people think all these plants and animals came from??? Maybe they spend so much time playing roblox now they think it's all a hologram or a conspiracy.

Anyway, making men's loos gender neutral is a great idea. Up to now, it's only ever been the women's that have been redesignated like that.

I'm new to this and fucking hell. Fucking hell! I can not believe that there are people intelligent enough to use a computer that can possibly think that sex is not biological. That gender critical feminists invented it or something? That a penis is female if the owner of a penis says it is? Nobody in the general public will buy this shit when it hits mainstream.

As a woman who is given no option but to share my unadapted ‘female’ toilets at work with people with male bodies (who identify themselves as women), I strongly feel this situation denies me and my female colleagues our reasonable expectations of dignity and privacy at work.

I don’t think the balance of granting personal validation (for male-bodied people) should outweigh the loss of dignity and privacy for women.

I have been perved on, attacked, dismissed and discriminated because of my female body since childhood. As a capable adult woman in broad daylight it still makes me jump every single time a large male bodied person comes out of the stall next to mine in that small space.

FUCK THAT. I am at WORK. I do not expect to have to deal with this totally unnecessary situation, AT WORK. This is not a situation my male colleagues are expected to just budge up and accommodate. Even if they did, having other male-bodied people in their toilet space would not affect them in the same way. Nothing wrong with male bodied people sharing toilet space together however they present in terms of ‘gender’. Why should we women have to accommodate men in our private spaces- which is why legal gender self ID is such a scary prospect.

Why should I have to be reminded of my sex-based vulnerability to attack by bigger stronger, male people in this way?

What decent person (whatever gender they believe themselves to be) would have so little empathy and consideration as to want to put their female colleagues in that position?

Or (since their actions speak louder) I wonder do they enjoy that feeling of intimidating a woman in her own space?

Anyone raised Male, who is Male bodied- however they identify- just can’t have had that same history of systemic sex-based discrimination and abuse which is unfortunately completely normalised as something that girls and women just have to put up with.

Men just cant relate to the physical fear reaction that women have, to men being in the spaces which are labelled for the private use of women. The shame and blame that goes with all that. It’s just never going to be in men’s realm of experience.

Pratchet has it right: to avoid this we should turn the men's toilets unisex and keep the women's toilets sex specific if there is no opportunity to make a third toilet space.

I think this bears repeating:

The problem is, as I have said, that people interpret biological sex in different ways - often as chromosomal sex or reproductive sex and those interpretations are anti-trans (and anti-intersex) and more about ideology than safety or modesty.

Sex is biology. It is a fact. It cannot be "interpreted". It is not an "ideology", unlike trans - which is entirely based on feelings.

Welcome to the world of gender identity, Berts! It's like the Twilight Zone but with more mascara.

Last night, I informed (short arse) DH that his penis has a hitherto unrecognised gender (which is the same thing as the biological sex that feminists invented to support their hateful ideology) and you guys will never believe it - we've woken up to house filled with glitter and rainbows this morning! I'm converted! It's a miracle!

(Can we move on to phrenology now? Does transactivism have a similarly revisionist position on this that I could use to infinitely better my circumstances?)

I'm new to this and fucking hell. Fucking hell!

Welcome to our world, Bert!

This is the new boss, just like the old boss.
People do know that sex is biological, and not a social construct. At this point what they are doing is using any argument to goad and demand compliance.

Women cannot opt out of their biology, dont want to, and wont tolerate this kind of bullying. We've seen this kind of authoritarianism before, under a thousand different guises.

If you don't need a woman only space hurrah for you. Campaign for a third unisex space and use that, instead of enforcing two mixed sex spaces on everyone else.

Also everything that GardenGeek said. I'm a person with a lifelong association with the gay community who by current definitions could call myself "queer", and I've been involved in subcultures full of GNC people for decades. My natural inclination when I see a man whose presentation is GNC has always been to be supportive and concerned about what other men might do to hurt him. Within the space of a few years TRAs have managed to squander that instinctive goodwill and destroy the trust that used to exist to the point where I'm now side-eyeing men who're GNC until it can be firmly established that they understand that they're men and are not going to attempt to force their bepenised selves into spaces where women are vulnerable. I used to be able to take that for granted, and was happy to share some spaces with drag queens for example on the basis that I knew they presented no threat to me. I am not happy with this development, and miss the trust that used to exist, but TRAs have so thoroughly poisoned the well that it's probably going to take decades for women and sane, reasonable GNC men to get back to that place of mutual trust and affection.

TRAs, you are the reason why the rest of us can't have nice things like trust, cooperation, and mutual support. Those things used to exist. You destroyed them. If you could stop peeing all over the ashes of the trust and support that used to exist like territorial dogs so the rest of us could start rebuilding that would be lovely.

Whenever Snap comes on saying 'trans women are women' I always hear it in a Dalek voice.

Sounds more like the Borg to me. Nope, sorry, I will not be assimilated.

Everything AAK said.

On the face of it, whether or not someone has a penis seems more reasonable as a basis but where does that leave someone with breasts, a female frame and manner, but a penis, albeit a redundant one because of the effects of oestrogen? Again, individuals like that belong in women's spaces. If those spaces can be improved with cubicles, great, that's the answer, but discriminating against a group of women because of their genes is utterly abhorrent to me.
In that instance, you would be discriminating because of their penis, not their genes.

How do you make urinals gender (or sex) neutral

I'm confused. I thought you said that sex was a construct or a figment of a rad fem imagination or something. So why can't urinals be gender (or sex) neutral?