Please can someone explain why the GRC process needs to be simpler?

[OlennasWimple]

I'm drafting my response to the GRC consultation. I know what I'm writing for the latter bits, where it gets into the interplay with the Equality Act and single sex spaces. But I'm getting quite cross with the first bits about the actual process and the cost of applying for a GRC. I fell like I must be missing something, because surely we aren't going through the whole consultation process - and hostile debate on self-ID - because some trans people don't want to fill out a lengthy form and pay a few hundred quid (or fill out a form to apply for a fee remission)?

This is a genuine question, not intended to be a re-hash of the arguments for or against self-ID, just a discussion on the actual process of applying and why it's so terrible at present.

I agree... the reality is that it broadens the number of people who can get a GRC who would be ineligible at the moment - because they don't qualify as being gender dysphoric through a medic's eyes....

So basically anyone who wants one can have one.....whoever fancies being a woman can be....

some trans people don't want to fill out a lengthy form and pay a few hundred quid

Check your privilege.

Spousal veto, historic transitioners, detransistioners, intersex people, and people who through their social economic background don't have the money to obtain multiple medical reports (these are expensive and not free) and don't have the background to navigate an extensive quasi-legal process, people whose application has been turned down due to a judicial mistake - there is no appeals process for the current system (except theoretically judicial review)

Human rights should be available to all - not just white middle class people.

I fell like I must be missing something, because surely we aren't going through the whole consultation process - and hostile debate on self-ID - because some trans people don't want to fill out a lengthy form and pay a few hundred quid (or fill out a form to apply for a fee remission)?

The present process requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from one of about 40 doctors only. (The list slightly longer than that but includes people who have retired and people like endocrinologists who aren't in the business of diagnosing gender dysphoria.) If you go through the NHS system you will generate the right paperwork and just need to pay £80 to get a copy. There are concerns that is a problem for anyone on benefits.

But the bigger problem is that if people don't go through the NHS system, they don't build up a file with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria by one of the legally prescribed doctors. That's particularly the case for immigrants and ex-pats but there are others.

Then there is the problem that gender dysphoria doesn't mean now what it meant in 2004 because the medical community has changed the definition. In the next round of changes, they may well entirely remove "gender dysphoria" from the lists of definitions and call it something else, as well as changing the definition.

Then there is the problem of intersex people. A diagnosis of gender dysphoria is impossible if one is intersex. All sorts of problems there.

Then there are things like the evidence one has to provide. How can one provide utility bills in the new name if one lives with parents? If you live in Britain but are not a British Citizen, you may not be able to changed your passport so you cannot show that evidence.

Then the reports have to detail surgery. So how can a psychiatrist / psychologist - necessary to give the diagnosis of gender dysphoria - then become an expert on the surgeries someone has had? And if someone doesn't want surgery, this is presently allowed but there are huge practical issues too.

The surprise really is that somehow nearly 5,000 people have fought their way through a maze of contradictions and impossible demands. That's almost exactly the same number as have climbed Everest which sort of sets the difficult in context. There are grounds for suggesting that Self-ID isn't the answer but the present system is seriously broken and absolutely needs to change. It is also very expensive for the Government to administer so they will want a simplification to save public money.

'Detransitioners', SarahAr? Suddenly they exist?

It's impossible to change sex and the law acknowledges this.

Anyway, i have heard one transitioned male say it was humiliating for h** wife to be interviewed.

You’re quite right OP. As long as we have the EA we need some kind of mechanism to properly certify sex changes.

A few hundred pounds and/or a moderate length form is in line with, or more lenient than, immigration procedures, divorce, PIP, business registration etc etc and more dramatic than any of those.

I don’t see any reason not to means test the fee, though.

There are seven NHS Gender identity Clinics currently.
The problem seems to be that they are turning people down at the clinics.. Transgender advocates want to institute Self ID so that people who want to transition will not, can not, be told no.

Those who want to change sex need to be socially aware enough to recognise that such a momentous decision has social consequences - both for themselves and for others. If they are not committed enough or prepared to go through the current process (or similar) then they have no business in expecting the rest of society to see them as they wish.
Self ID is the problem - in terms of potential safety of others and in terms of debasing individual and collective identity.

It's impossible to change sex and the law acknowledges this.

So how do you read s9 of the Gender Recognition Act? Or understand the recent MB decision in the European Court of Justice where MB changed sex to qualify for pension (but not gender according to the judgement) without getting a GRC?

And even if you managed to get the law changed in this country, then someone from Ireland can freely enter and be treated as a woman in law on the basis of her Self-ID in Ireland - and she will have the birth certificate to back it up. Scotland will probably be added to that list over the next 12 months.

Even if you got the right to see GRCs that would not allow you to see them for people who have used a legal framework other than England and Wales to change sex.

There are seven NHS Gender identity Clinics currently.
The problem seems to be that they are turning people down at the clinics.. Transgender advocates want to institute Self ID so that people who want to transition will not, can not, be told no.

Good point. The delay in being able to see a GIC to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is a strong argument in favour of Self-ID.

Snappity: are you saying that S9 means you can actually change sex?

There are no good arguments in favour of Self ID.

They’ve got to change it from the GRA to the SRA, if they’re making changes. This gender nonsense is cringeworthy in its stupidity.

The delay in being able to see a GIC to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is a strong argument in favour of Self-ID

It’s a good argument for pumping money into medical services for GID patients.

Snappity: are you saying that S9 means you can actually change sex?

Read it yourself:

Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

And note that it uses the word woman very explicitly. It is why all these posts that "trans women are not women" are abhorrently about trying to remove the legal status of some women.

It doesn't say you change sex. It means you can be treated under the law as if you were the opposite sex.

Do you think the fact that the law says that,means people can actually change sex?

Then there are things like the evidence one has to provide. How can one provide utility bills in the new name if one lives with parents?

A bank statement, p60 or p45, benefit letter, driving license or passport will do in place of utility bills.
Only a deed poll is needed to change your name on any of the above documents and the deedpoll is £36.

Then the reports have to detail surgery. So how can a psychiatrist / psychologist - necessary to give the diagnosis of gender dysphoria - then become an expert on the surgeries someone has had?

Do they need to be an expert on surgery or is it possible they can understand medical terms like vaginoplasty, masectomy or phalloplasty?
I am not a surgeon but I know what all 3 of those terms mean.

Then there is the problem of intersex people. A diagnosis of gender dysphoria is impossible if one is intersex. All sorts of problems there.

Thats because intersex people are not trans. They are intersex. They have a biological medical condition not gender dysphoria and so do not require a diagnosis for it.
Intersex people need to campaign for their own rights to legally change their sex and be seen seperatly to the trans community. They are not the same and the few intersex people I have spoken to do not want to be put under the trans umbrella by medical proffessionals or the trans community.

It’s an embarrassingly shoddy piece of law making whichever side of the fence you’re on; It repeatedly conflates sex and gender then has a wooly stab at legislating a kind of transubstantiation into existence.

Should be repealed

It’s an embarrassingly shoddy piece of law making whichever side of the fence you’re on; It repeatedly conflates sex and gender then has a wooly stab at legislating a kind of transubstantiation into existence.

Apart from s9 it is a dreadfully drafted law, on that we agree. It doesn't conflate sex and gender though. It had to recognise a change of sex to comply with the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights. It opted to add gender as well and that was sensible.

Should be repealed

Under international law, it cannot be.

Do you think the fact that the law says that,means people can actually change sex?

Yes. That is the law in England and Wales, and in many other countries.

Snappity 10/10 fr energy but you’re ferociously defending a nonsense. If transwomen have a real sense of being women, they should want some gatekeeing on that status too. All legal protections for all disadvantaged groups will effectively evaporate if self-identification (as a woman, as a child, as disabled, as a PoC, etc etc) is adopted.

Take a look a the Maltese law for an example of simplicity. tgeu.org/gender-identity-gender-expression-sex-characteristics-act-malta-2015/

None of this nonsense about trying to come up with differences between sex and gender we have in the UK. It recognises that birth certificates and everything else use gender. Simple. It avoids the gender critical hang ups about sex by making the law about gender across all public services and private functions - so single gender spaces. It has a very sensible approach to the treatment of minors. For very good reasons the law in Malta is regarded as significantly better than our own Gender Recognition Act.