Please can someone explain why the GRC process needs to be simpler?

[OlennasWimple]

I'm drafting my response to the GRC consultation. I know what I'm writing for the latter bits, where it gets into the interplay with the Equality Act and single sex spaces. But I'm getting quite cross with the first bits about the actual process and the cost of applying for a GRC. I fell like I must be missing something, because surely we aren't going through the whole consultation process - and hostile debate on self-ID - because some trans people don't want to fill out a lengthy form and pay a few hundred quid (or fill out a form to apply for a fee remission)?

This is a genuine question, not intended to be a re-hash of the arguments for or against self-ID, just a discussion on the actual process of applying and why it's so terrible at present.

Which humans have changed bio sex Snap?
Name them.

FYI changing sex is not cosmetic surgery and it is not taking hormonones.

But Snap, I thought earlier on in this thread you said that human beings probably can’t change biological sex?
You can change your mind, clearly, but you still haven’t told us how humans can biologically change sex.
Can signing a piece of paper change you from an egg producing, potentially childbearing, vagina having female, to a sperm producing, beard growing, penis having male? If not, then self ID is bollocks, end of.

I honestly think MNHQ are allowing this poster to be a GF.

Wondering whether the heat has warped some people’s minds from reading this thread...

What is a gf?

Goady f*er

It's very strange

We should all remember that trans people who are unable to respect women's boundaries will be able to self ID right into them.

Not just transpeople though, any man who fancies it. This has bugger all to do with trans, and everything to do with entitled men. Actual transpeople, you know, the ones with gender dysphoria, are being played like a fiddle, hence the push for demedicalisation, well, for adults at least. I mean if it actually was for people with gender dysphoria, Who let’s face it, are the only people who have any justifiable need to be reclassified, they could have the debate out in the open and it wouldn’t be a difficult cell. It’ll be interesting to see what happens to health services for trans adults if this goes through. I could bet all my savings on it not being an improvement.
Incidentally, all this money being spent on this consultation, how much difference would that have made to health services for trans adults if it had been put there instead?

"I honestly think MNHQ are allowing this poster to be a GF."

They're clearly allowing this with regards to a few people. They've allowed homophobic posts to remain.

They want this section of the forum and/or the posters gone.

Yeah, Snappity biological sex IS chromosomal sex. Saying you can’t change chromosomal sex but you can change biological sex makes you sound like an imbecile. Changing biological sex would involve a chemical/physical process if it were possible. How on earth you think that the acquisition of a certificate can have an impact on your physical body is beyond me. You can’t honestly believe that. How would your pituitary gland know you had got a certificate for instance?

How would your pituitary gland know you had got a certificate for instance?

Gender reveal cake to announce it prehaps?

Incidentally, all this money being spent on this consultation, how much difference would that have made to health services for trans adults if it had been put there instead?

Not a lot - running a consultation isn't a very expensive exercise other than staff costs, and if they weren't doing the consultation they would be doing other policy work so the money for their salaries couldn't be put into the NHS budget instead

@homefromthehills - hope you don't mind me tagging you, but I'm interested in your thoughts on the practical changes that could simplify the GRC process without changing the underpinning policy (that there should be testable criteria)?

Now there is a business idea. Gender reveal cakes containing some sort of signal to the body to begin the process of changing biological sex.

Just think you could have the blue cake and eat the pink cake. Before eating the blue cake and all the other pink people's cakes.

Some pink cakes for the TRA who beat Maria Maclachlan

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailywire.com/news/15418/british-schools-want-teachers-give-transgender-amanda-prestigiacomo%3famp

Too late peak

Ooh, love it Pratchet, but do they have the magic chromosome-changing ingredient that mine will have?

lol
They dont really want to become women shhh because then no one would do what they say

Snappity

Humans can and do change biological sex. They don't change chromosomal sex but that is merely one attribute of biological sex.

Hmmm. I'm really struggling to understand these other attributes of biological sex that can be truly changed from male to female, or the other way round (as opposed to taking on the stereotypes of gender that tend to be attached to those of certain biological sexes).

If I sit down and copy a Constable painting, I haven't created a Constable painting, I've created a copy of a Constable painting.

An expert surgeon skinning and inverting a penis to make it look like a small part of the complex female anatomy does not = creating a female vagina.

A male taking "female" hormones does not = turning into a female. It turns them into a male taking "female hormones" which disrupts the standard male-bodied hormonal functions.

A female having their breasts removed does not = turning into a male. They are a female with a mastectomy.

What are these biological attributes that can truly be changed by surgery or hormones that suddenly turn you from one sex to another?

Biology, not bigotry.

Unless we all close our eyes and wish really, really hard?

A male taking "female" hormones does not = turning into a female. It turns them into a male taking "female hormones" which disrupts the standard male-bodied hormonal functions.

After reading the “I’m intersex AMA” thread I see it slightly differently.

The OP had been born with XY chromosomes but the Y chromosome had failed to properly develop testes and therefore produce testosterone.

Having entirely female looking genitalia and looking completely female to the outside world, she was raised and socialised as a female and is 100% woman. She said that no one ever sees her as anything other than female. In fact it wasn’t till she didn’t go through puberty that it was discovered.

So anyway my point is - if you can be female with XY then what is it that makes a man? Testosterone? Socialisation based on external genitalia and appearance.

Doesn’t stop my opposition to self id but it has made me think that hormones and socialisation together count for a lot.

I can’t walk unaided, but I’ll happily put with the endless bureaucracy involved in proving it because the alternative- able bodied people appropriating disabled people’s facilities via self ID - is unacceptable. Not only unacceptable to me personally, but unacceptable in a civilised society.

Quite. Same boat for that.

Multiple medical staff write me proof of my disability yearly or so, so that I can prove I am still disabled, despite not actually having any chance of getting any better. Now, I am not happy to put up with this at the regularity it is, and especially not when my condition will only ever get worse which is also year upon year put down in my medical proof (and disregarded, by a jobcentre decision maker with no medical experience...in order to take my living away from me, which tends to result in a long tribunal wait, followed by a backpayment), not better, however I do understand the need for the tests needed to prove my disability.

If there was just open access for everyone for PIP and such, they could not exist at all and people like me would have to live on the pittance that is JSA, regardless of any extra costs my disability gives me.

"So anyway my point is - if you can be female with XY then what is it that makes a man? Testosterone? Socialisation based on external genitalia and appearance."

They are genetically male, sex is determined at the point of conception.

Transgender is not intersex, and intersex people hate being used in these arguments.