Please can someone explain why the GRC process needs to be simpler?

[OlennasWimple]

I'm drafting my response to the GRC consultation. I know what I'm writing for the latter bits, where it gets into the interplay with the Equality Act and single sex spaces. But I'm getting quite cross with the first bits about the actual process and the cost of applying for a GRC. I fell like I must be missing something, because surely we aren't going through the whole consultation process - and hostile debate on self-ID - because some trans people don't want to fill out a lengthy form and pay a few hundred quid (or fill out a form to apply for a fee remission)?

This is a genuine question, not intended to be a re-hash of the arguments for or against self-ID, just a discussion on the actual process of applying and why it's so terrible at present.

Some people are not so fortunate. Their genitals might not match their chrosomes

Then they are intersex. Not trans. They cannot change from 1 sex to the other as they are both. Intersex peoole are not proof that sex change in humans is possible.

Their brain might be female in orientation but their genitals male.

There is no proof that the brain is sexed. In fact a 2017 study concluded that if the researchers were given a random brain to sex it would be impossible.
I can get you the details of that study if you want.

Life for some people is complicated. The law should and does recognise that the world is complicated - but it is overly bureaucratic in doing so and that needs to be simplified.

As I have said previously why should the law be able to change a biological reality it had no hand in deciding?

Life for some people is complicated. The law should and does recognise that the world is complicated - but it is overly bureaucratic in doing so and that needs to be simplified.

Tripe.

I can’t walk unaided, but I’ll happily put with the endless bureaucracy involved in proving it because the alternative- able bodied people appropriating disabled people’s facilities via self ID - is unacceptable. Not only unacceptable to me personally, but unacceptable in a civilised society.

It's a nonsense and should be repealed. Humans cannot change their biological sex and we should not be telling children that it is possible.

Present as whatever gender you like but don't pretend that you have actually changed your biological sex.

Iran is a good example of a socially conservative country. Homosexuality is illegal. But someone can change sex and go from it being illegal for them to have sex with men to the exact opposite.

Are you really holding up Iran as a positive example?

And while we are at it, Malta, which is the only country in the EU to completely ban abortions. Ireland has some of the most restrictive abortion laws too (soon to be changed but this has been very slow progress). And Argentina has very restrictive abortion laws too. Is it a coincidence that (with the exception of Canada), all the countries praised by TRA for their stance on self ID have seriously poor records for women's (you know, the ones who can get pregnant) reproductive rights.

I'd be wary of any organisation that considers Iran, Ireland, Malta and Argentina as countries to look to for genuinely progressive policies.

The reason for that is that trans ideology is not progressive. It supports repressive gender stereotypes, in fact without those could not exist.

Exactly, Nana. It might be superficially progressive but dig a bit and it is clear it's a repressive, backward looking movement.

Fifty years ago, the response to those whose behaviour did not for the stereotypes attached to their body were told to change their behaviour.
Now, the response to such people is change your bodies.
Neither response really floats my boat, but if you held a gun to my head and made me choose. I’d probably plump for the former.
There is another way of course - but that would involve recognising the stereotypes for the junk that they are. Far too frightening.

No mammal can change their biological sex. People can change their secondary sexual characteristics. But you need drugs and surgery to do that, and taking hormones does not mean you change your biological sex.

It’s instructive to compare the way trans demands for removal of medical gateways have been received to the reception of women’s demands for the removal of the two medical gateways they must pass to access legal abortion.
All these things tell us so much about who matters and who doesn’t, don’t they

Malta records people's gender and not sex? How would I be recorded, then, when I reject gender stereotypes and restrictions? How are the Pip Bunces of this world recorded when their gender supposedly changes?

If you can change sex, Snappity, could you please tell me how? I have two medical conditions which affect women only. They are having rather a negative impact on my life and I'm thrilled to hear I can alter myself so as to be free of them. Thanks.

obtain multiple medical reports (these are expensive and not free) and don't have the background to navigate an extensive quasi-legal process, people whose application has been turned down due to a judicial mistake

But if you're disabled or have a child who needs support at school through disability then you have to "navigate an extensive quasi-legal process" multiple times for every little thing. Repeatedly.

Does anyone ever wonder if they were the only ones who paid attention in science class?

Clearly the GRA doesn’t recognise that an individual actually changes sex. Try convincing the law that you’ve now become a man so should inherit your family title ahead of your younger brother.

Snappity - thank you for your lengthy initial answer, which I found very helpful. And thank you Aornis for bringing the thread back on topic

SarahAr - your response was, um, less than helpful And worryingly, you seem to think that the spousal veto is some kind of irritation or irrelevancy

The problem I'm grappling with is that there are all kinds of situations where we require people who want or need to use a service to fill out complex forms and pay fees. Where objections are raised to that process, we tend to do things like simplify the forms, review the documentary requirements to ensure that they remain relevant and proportionate, and sign post where help (including financial help) can be found. We don't tend to do away with the whole process to make it essentially a request for something.

The intersex point is interesting (ie how to get a GRC where no diagnosis of gender dysphoria can be made), but I would think that could be overcome by changing the medical criteria to include a diagnosis of an intersex condition?

I agree that there should be some form of appeal process other than judicial review

I'm not persuaded by the "living with parents so cannot get own documentation" argument. Banks and other financial organisations similarly need to see things like utility bills, so adults living with their parents need to sort out paperwork to establish an independent track record, as it were. This isn't just something that affects trans people, it's more of a generational "can't afford to get on the housing ladder so still at home" issue.

On medical reports, I thought that surgery was not necessary in order to apply for a GRC? And if surgery had been completed, the report didn't need to be overly detailed ("vaginaplasty surgery completed on X date" type report). Similar to the details that have to be provided for a life insurance application, where the fact that I had gynae surgery when I was in my early 20s needs to be trotted out every single time

Do you know why there are only 40 doctors on the prescribed list? This seems like a resource and access issue, which is better resolved by expanding the list (if there are additional qualified doctors willing and able to be added to the list) rather than doing away with the list altogether

Humans can and do change biological sex. They don't change chromosomal sex but that is merely one attribute of biological sex.

Erm, humans changing sex is a biological impossibility.

If they could, why do surgeons have to make it clear that patients are not changing their sex?

No matter how much surgery a male has, his body is still male. These alterations through surgery and taking hormones merely mimic the sex characteristics of a female. They do not magically turn the body parts into female.

Why are GFs like this allowed to remain on the boards? This user has posted far more offensive content and in a greater amount than anyone else here.

Clearly the GRA doesn’t recognise that an individual actually changes sex. Try convincing the law that you’ve now become a man so should inherit your family title ahead of your younger brother.

Snappity can't quite grasp the fact that the various exemptions, and the wording, clearly mean that a person is not recognised as the opposite sex. Bless.

Ain’t no lawyer, that’s for sure.
Also the poster of a very offensive comment about women who have hysterectomies. Yet she is still here.
Remarkable privilege some people have

humans changing sex is a biological impossibility

Just wanted to repeat it a little louder for all the people snoozing at the back.

Also the poster of a very offensive comment about women who have hysterectomies

How is repeating the language my GP uses to me offensive?

I'm also interested in understanding more about the issues with this process.

It looks to me like there are 96 named specialists who can write you a report

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-dysphoria-list-of-specialists-t493

You also have option to send a report from a registered medical professional not on this list if they can prove they work in gender dysphoria.

And if you've had surgery you have an option to submit evidence from any doctor (from that GIRES link below)

More details on applying here
www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/how-to-apply

If you get turned down you can apply again, or appeal the decision to the High Court. You will be told why you've been turned down.

Applyin to a court sounds like a pain, although I don't know what that process is. I guess reapplying with a discounted fee might be a better process?

Explainer from GIRES which might discuss issues with current process
www.gires.org.uk/obtaining-your-gender-recognition-certificate/

I think that Snap knows full well that human beings can’t change sex, in fact, I’d go so far as to say that almost no one actually believes human beings can change sex, but to admit that would necessarily lead to admitting a whole bunch of other things.
The whole changing sex thing is a red herring anyway, because if it was possible for a human being to physically change sex, it wouldn’t happen just by signing a piece of paper, and if anyone is going to be stupid enough to say that signing a piece of paper magically turns you from a potentially childbearing, egg producing, vagina having female, into a beard growing, sperm producing, penis having mail, well then they are going to look like a nob aren’t they.
If self ID goes through, and people start changing their legal sex/gender, whatever it says, then twaw becomes a nonsense position that they can neither assert nor defend. I think that most of the population are quite happy to accept that whilst you can’t actually change sex, hormones and surgery do make a difference, and it’s about as close as you can get, but signing a piece of paper? I’ve signed lots of pieces of paper in my life, and I’m still a woman, in fact we all must have changed sex thousands of times without even noticing it.

Or instead of in fact in my final sentence.

I think that Snap knows full well that human beings can’t change sex, in fact, I’d go so far as to say that almost no one actually believes human beings can change sex, but to admit that would necessarily lead to admitting a whole bunch of other things.

No. Humans can and do change biological sex. If it comes down to it, the argument is between a group who believe humans can and do change sex and those who believe they can't. Pretty much everything else is a secondary argument.

If human could change their biologicalsex, they would become fertile as their new sex. that's what changing sex means in the animal world.

Humans cannot change sex - or are you pretending that intersex people choose their condition?

No. Humans can and do change biological sex. If it comes down to it, the argument is between a group who believe humans can and do change sex and those who believe they can't. Pretty much everything else is a secondary argument

How do humans change sex?