Can you explain to me what a cis woman is? Am I one?

[WaitrosePigeon]

Sorry, this must sound stupid. I’m confused as to what cis woman means. I was born female. I’m just a woman aren’t I?

If you are genuinely interested why don't you read the majority of the posts on this thread and put your thinking cap on. Thinking

Assigned at birth? What, like, "ah yes there is a penis, but I think this one is going to be a girl so it's a girl!"?

Cis is a made up term to demean women.

Real tennis, on the other hand, is the original form of tennis and dates back hundreds of years before it was supplanted the what we now know of as tennis...

I have read the thread thank-you placemats

Placemats "It's a thought that came out of your head."

It's really not. I make no claim on it, just answering someone who asked what it means.

You have said what you think it means, I've said what it means based on current usage and definition.

When you say I'm wrong, do you mean the definition I gave and that you quote is wrong?

Or do you mean you don't like that definition, or you don't like the word? Because I did go out of my way to acknowledge in my post that some people don't like it and mnhq have asked that it not be used. It's not like I'm rallying the hordes to shout cis at you, in which case you might have grounds for being annoyed.

I guess I did leave out from that sentence that it can also be used to distinguish between a person assigned male at birth who identifies as male and a person who was assigned female at birth who identifies as male. Maybe that's what you meant by "wrong".

Would you care to enlarge on what you mean by "posters like you"?

I've not said what I think it means though. Dandy If you can't understand my post Dandy then that's not my problem. It's yours. Own it!

So pleased you have managed to now read the thread Thinking

SuperDandy I am new to this debate and I found your post helpful.

I have re-read the thread as placemats seemed to think I had missed something.

It seems to me that there are two issues :
a) the term 'cis' woman is being used to mean two or maybe three different things: 1) born with female anatomy and 2) born with female anatomy and not wanting to identify as male 3) born with female anatomy and being feminine
b) some people think the term is being used an insult, some people find the term insulting in itself, and some people find it useful in distinguishing between a 'trans' woman and category 2) above

Have I got it now?

Here's a demonstration of cis and trans being used in Organic Chemistry (writing is in Brazilian Portuguese). I can snap some more pictures, if anyone is interested.

You seem terribly confident assuming other people's gender identities @zeeboo. And with your accusations of transphobia.

No woman has a gender expression that society deems to be appropriate. In case you hadn't noticed women get all kinds of shit thrown at them however they express themselves. Nothing is ever satisfactory, that is part of the discrimination that women face in a sexist and misogynist society.

Out of interest, do you believe in sexed souls, or do you believe in the idea that brains are sexed and can somehow end up in the body of the wrong sex?

it is fairer to all if we make clear whether we were lucky enough to be born in the body that is right for us and with the gender expression that society deems appropriate for that body.

Lucky enough? wtf? Just about every single one of my "gender expressions" is deemed "inappropriate" by society because I have a female body, does that mean I'm a trans man in denial and should start destroying my healthy physical body with T shots?

I am a woman. I was born with female sex organs that were observed at birth, I don't identify as a woman because I don't know what that means. I just am a woman.

Well well.
I didn't feel especially lucky to be born female, or socialised into a feminine role. I just made the best of it, found my own way, knowing that I could not escape my biology, especially if I wanted to try and have my own children someday.
The new classification of "cis" is yet another label hoisted upon me, another thing I should accommodate in order to make others more comfortable. Or be told I am transphobic.
That sounds like a threat to me and I don't like it.
I've put up with enough people telling me who I should be or how I should act. If you are able to respect other people's gender identities, then you ought to respect mine. I do not have one. I do not identify with the "gender expression" or social roles of womanhood. I simply am a female who doesn't give a hoot about my pronouns or what I wear. I am a woman. I have never in my life identified with "cis," so please don't assume my feelings. Let me express my own self accurately. If you say others have that unquestionable right, then allow me mine.

Are we just back to this nebulous ‘identity’ stuff, then?

Where does gender dysphoria come into all this? Is a cis person simply a person that doesn’t suffer from gender dysphoria? And if so, do we also need new words to describe people who don’t have other dysphorias?

Or, if you take the view that being trans isn’t an illness, a la T May, but instead a normal human condition, one that generally requires a bit of medical supervision but doesn’t need curing, doesn’t it make it analogous with pregnancy?

Only we’ve not yet required a term to describe ‘not pregnant’.

and with the gender expression that society deems appropriate for that body.

That is precisely what feminists have been fighting against for decades: that a particular "gender expression" should be linked with one or other biological sex.

Gender critical feminists say - hey boys, you can wear a dress and like pink and still be a boy, gender is a load of bullcrap, a social construct - girls can climb trees and like science too.

Gender ideology foists 'cis' on women and encourages a belief in "girl brain/boy brain" and "pink brain/blue brain" - and that the body should be changed by puberty blockers, sex hormones and surgery to match a socially constructed "gender". As a PP says - encouraging lifelong drugs and surgery on a perfectly healthy body.

The problem for me with the whole 'assigned sex at birth' and later gender identity stuff is that the attempted equal usage of trans/cis assumes that we all have both of the above. And they either align, or they don't. You can't magic away the fact that many people on here are saying they don't identify as a woman (they just are), by saying that they somehow do (just don't realise it because things are aligned hence you don't notice them). You are still assuming that something which is not universally accepted (gender identity) is universal in order to make your definition of trans and cis work (with either cis meaning being aligned or just meaning not trans).

Perhaps sexual orientation could give us a clue. In the dim and distant past, we have straight people who were so straight they didn't need a name, and various inverts/perverts/sick debased individuals such as myself. The classification here being whether you were suitably attracted to the opposite sex, or not. And any who said not were given the derogatory labels going around. Okay, in that situation I can understand if someone might have wanted to call all straight people non-gay for effect. Made a point. But that would have broken down once you realised that you had gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, asexual people and so on and so on. Many different ways of not being straight! Okay, queer somehow fills the non-straight area, but then you have the usual problem, that since straight is definitely not interesting or trendy, everyone tries to get themselves in some way into the non-straight category, and it hence fails to be useful.

The lesson as regards sex and gender identity? That we should allow terms that respect the full variety of subjective opinions and objective facts. That it's not just sex/gender aligned or not, or even various genders, but also the doesn't believe gender is a useful concept, and doesn't have a gender identity. Else you are trying to put an atheist (who never believed in any god), and a lapsed catholic (who no longer believes in that particular god) in the same box. Saying my particular gender identity aligns with my sex isn't true if I keep saying I don't have one! There is nothing to align or not align. That is a different condition to having one and saying it does/doesn't align.

We need to differentiate first, surely, between those who have a/believe in gender identity (who then may be trans or cis if they want to be very binary about the genders they believe in!), and those who don't, who just have a sex....................

I don't identify as a woman . it is something I am whether I like it or not. It is something I put up with. If I had a choice I would not have chosen to be a woman. I am would not change it because itbis not possible without self mutilation and anyway it also enabled me to be a mother. And because it is far better to make the best of yourself in life than to weep and wail about it.

My sense of self is independent of the fact that I am a woman in the same way as my sense of self does not care about my hair colour. I can be man or woman in my dreams.

By calling me cis you are telling me that I have a gender identity. I am ttelling you I don't have a gender identity. Why are you right not me?

I am a woman. "Cis" is made up bollocks to do with "feels".

Cis a is prefix that can be used when it's helpful to communication, to distinguish between a person assigned female at birth who identifies as female and a person who was assigned male at birth who identifies as female.

So only to define women then - no such thing as CIS men? Why is that?

And you don't get 'assigned' at birth unless you are intersex, your genitals and thus sex get 'recorded' at birth.

Ok then. So what is the term for people born female who do.not identify as female or male but instead identify as human with a female sex ?

zeeboo

You have no idea whether the OP is cis or not

Should she decide after reading the thread that she wishes to identify as cis then obviously thats fine

Hate to break it to you but its really not up to you to decide for other people

"Cis a is prefix that can be used when it's helpful to communication, to distinguish between a person assigned female at birth who identifies as female and a person who was assigned male at birth who identifies as female."

This assumes that

?our sex
?our sex role (gender)
?our internal gender ID (claimed as innate and most people have one but I've not seen anything to support this

Is an important part of our identity.

For the older ones among us, the whole language around "identity" is a bit new and unknown, hard to understand. I grew up in the days of "I am" "You are". So people would say "I am a girl, I am a goth. I am a big fan of Eastenders and I am not very interested in clothes". Or whatever. They would have their facts, and their personality, and it would be couched in terms of I am this or that, They are something else. I am a Goth, They are Casuals. Might be something you might hear said

The first time I heard of "identify as" was around sexuality and it was about HIV and sexual health and not targeting things at "gay men" as some men who have sex with men did not "identify" as gay or bisexual and so they were left off / didn't consume the messaging >> instead we talked about "men who have sex with men" and that was clear.

Now it seems that "identify as" is more important than "am". And we are all assumed to have a core "set" of identiites that are fundamental to our being, one of them being sex. But, most people, espeically older ones I support, don't "identify as" a man or a woman etc. They are one. The identify thing is baffling and meaningless. And then you try to parse it by thinking about things that you might identify as. A christian. A sci fi fan. A model train enthusiast. I suppose it's about something that you are but that is also important to your self image, who you are? Many people don't feel this way about sex though. Or gender. It's just not an important thing. This is where it all falls down a bit. The assumption is that everyone has an internal gender ID and this is a core part of their "identity". Who have they asked? Trans people - by definition they have this. To extrapolate it to everyone else, is an overstep.

For many people the whole concept of "gender ID" as a core and internal part of their inner selves is simply, not. It doesn't make sense. So statements like "a person assigned female at birth who identifies as female" are baffling. Loads of women do not "identify" as female. People don't know what it means, they don't have this feeling, they can't conceptualise what this is.

Is there a reason trans activists chose to call women "cis women" instead of "natal women"?

"we were lucky enough to be born in the body that is right for us and with the gender expression that society deems appropriate for that body. "

What a complete load of bullshit. I've spent my whole fucking life (over 50 years of it) rebelling against "the gender expression that society deems appropriate for that body", ever since I first told a teacher I wanted to play cricket with the boys, not rounders with the girls. Doesn't make me a man. It makes me a woman (no fucking "cis" needed) who recognises gender for the oppressive pile of shite it is.

Is there a reason trans activists chose to call women "cis women" instead of "natal women"?
Not sure, but I would venture to guess that it's because cis/trans is terminology often presented as a binary . I believe that even non-binary people fall under the "trans" umbrella.
Plus, some trans activists believe that because a trans woman identifies as a woman, this means they were literally born a woman (with a female penis, etc). Therefore they might actually identify themselves with the term "natal."
To be clear, I use natal to denote women born female (formerly just known as women).