Can we talk about the mental impact of being told the definition of woman is changing?

[UglyCathKidstonBag]

I’d like to hear specifically from women who feel their mental health has been in any way impacted by being told the definition of “woman” has or will change so that it either excludes them or includes men. Has anyone felt their mental health has been impacted by the “erasure” of woman.

I have long term therapy as part of treatment for PTSD and GAD both of which are centred around abuse from various men in my life. I had been able to control both to a manageable state thanks to this treatment until the past 3-6 months.
I am now unable to use places such as gyms, swimming pools, changing rooms and similar settings because of my fear of being in intimate spaces with unknown male bodied people. This is now starting to have a knock on impact for my work.

[Ereshkigal]

Thanks for linking esmew! Saved me doing so.

[Ereshkigal]

*TRAs and allies+

Don't you think it's a little bit oppressive to tell women with anxiety and PTSD exacerbated by rampant misogyny of well, dismissing women's feelings and rights, to STFU because trans people might hear?

[LaSquirrel]

A heartfelt support thread by women, then...
The loud stomping of size 11 pumps and the stench of TRA piss-marking all over the place.

You cannot help yourselves, can you?
GTFO women's spaces. You do not belong. You just proved it. Again.

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I think you're onto something there Red - the feeling of revulsion - I got it when I went on Second Life and I get it looking at TRA images. It always astonishes me that any woman doesn't get it when doing the same.

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

Here's a thread load of women injured by horrific male violence. So a reasonable response would be to express horror at their injuries, plus offer empathy and support.

What happens here on FWR? There's a gang of entitled men appear to put the boot in.

Says a lot about them - it's what lowlife's do

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

Ten Arguments For Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now
arran

Cyberspace now is used for discharging the projections of MRAs/TRAs so is a very dangerous place for women and children as the soup of their projections is poisonous- it is indeed the poisoned fruit

[arranfan]

stench of TRA piss-marking all over the place.

Reminded me of Jeffreys' discussion of public lavatories and Sheila Cavanagh's work on dung smearing as a way of establishing territorial dominance over a space and making it unsuitable/undesirable to women.

[Cavanagh] says that men like to spread faeces about in the toilets to mark their territory in a way that women do not, ‘There is a none too subtle correlation between heteronormative masculinities and the territorialisation of public facilities through the spread of dung’ (Cavanagh, 2010: 163). Men, it seems, like to spread their ‘dung’ on the walls and doors of public lavatories.... Sheila Jeffreys: Cavanagh discussion about public lavatories and gender

[arranfan]

womanformallyknownaswoman Lanier is excellent. What shook me was the recent observation that social media condemnathons and outrages are all technological mechanisms for mass behaviour modification - and aimed at generating advertising.

There is la belle indifference to what harms others as long as social media allows individuals and minorities to prioritise how they feel or their own perceptions.

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

arran
I think Cialdini and various social psychologists argue that when individuals can be coerced into abandoning their integrity by being compelled to repeat untruths they can then be bound to the coercive force by a need for consistency, mixed with shame and complicity.

Jacob T. Levy's piece about Authoritarianism and Post-Truth Politics highlighted this: “[The] great analysts of truth and speech under totalitarianism—George Orwell, Hannah Arendt, Vaclav Havel—can help us recognize this kind of lie for what it is. Sometimes—often—a leader with authoritarian tendencies will lie in order to make others repeat his lie both as a way to demonstrate and strengthen his power over them.

Saying something obviously untrue, and making your subordinates repeat it with a straight face in their own voice, is a particularly startling display of power over them. It’s something that was endemic to totalitarianism.”

I've read a lot of Caldini to understand grooming of adults - to buy, to dismantle their internal predator instincts etc

Also, coercion, as in cultic relationships and situations, is more complicated. There a number of forces brought to bear on the target to undo their mind and then rebuild it in the image of the psychopathic ideology at play. Would love to discuss more but gotta go elsewhere now - will come back to it. You and I seem to have very similar interests!

I think there's no greater turn-on for someone with psychopathic traits than the thrill of making a puppet of someone/people.

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

arran
What shook me was the recent observation that social media condemnathons and outrages are all technological mechanisms for mass behaviour modification - and aimed at generating advertising.

Have you seen the Century of the Self docos?

Yes it's a huge mind control vehicle and hence very very dangerous for normal plus vulnerable minds. It is all about creating anxiety and "not good enough" and leading people to "need" service X or Product Y or to believe this person will solve their problems/be their soul mate/ take their distress away etc

Gotta go for now, unfortunately :( - interesting topics for me and love finding another mind on the same wavelength :)...

[VickyEadie]

I have to say that today is a very good day for gender critical feminists. I find the words 'told you so' keep popping into my head and that helps my mental health a bit.

[Ereshkigal]

Yes I am having a much better day today!

[SarahAr]

This is utterly erroneous ... the EqA 2010 relates to transsexuals only not transgenders (see Section 7: //www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7)

and it in no way permits any transsexual [or transgender] to access any female spaces [not even public female toilets]; see the Exceptions: sisterhoodispowerful.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/a-uk-guide-for-non-lawyers-about-protecting-women-only-spaces-june-2016/

Transgenders is not a noun. The words transgender women includes transsexual women. And the EA covers anyone with the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment", which means anyone who intends, is or has reassigned their gender. There does not have to be a medical process.


You state the EA does not allow transgender women to access female toilets and quote a GC blog.

The EA does allow transgender women to use the female toilets. See Sections 13.57 to 13.60 in the ERHC Statutory Code of Practice on the Provision of Public services www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf. See also Croft v Royal Mail. Unlike the blog piece to which you refer, the courts have to taken into account the code when deciding their case.


[Also Ereshkigal - I will keep saying this until this misinformation stops appearing on MN!]

[SarahAr]

Even if these men were to sign a false statutory declaration, this would not give them the right or ability to enter safe spaces.

Of course it bloody would, don't be silly. Self ID means self ID, plus not being asked for any form of ID, have you actually read the GRA consultation?

Yes I have read the GRA consultation, there was nothing in it about the GRA changes giving men the right to enter womens' safe spaces.

I don't know whether you have just misunderstood it or are deliberately spreading untruths. If you believe the GRA gives people who have a GRC the right to enter women's safe spaces, then provide primary or secondary legal authorities. And by legal authorities I mean authorities that would be cited in a court case.

[Knicknackpaddyflak]

GRA consultation:

The plan is to go with self identification of gender

And not to ask for any form of ID

It's there in black and white.

Which logically means any man is free to enter any woman's space he feels like and expect not to be challenged.

How are you managing to get any other interpretation out of that?

[Ereshkigal]

As Professor Kathleen Stock pointed out in her excellent speech in Brighton, there needs to be some work done on analysing the interplay between the GRA and the EA. She said even experienced barristers and legal experts are confused about it, and there is very little case law.

[Knicknackpaddyflak]

And I'm not sure if you're misinterpreting it or deliberately spreading misinformation either.

[Knicknackpaddyflak]

CoL are demonstrating it Eresh

People to use the facilities of their choice in the moment.
No ID required.

EA exemptions and protections for women nowhere to be seen, not even considered.

[TheCountryGirl]

**LaSquirrel

A heartfelt support thread by women, then...
The loud stomping of size 11 pumps and the stench of TRA piss-marking all over the place.

You cannot help yourselves, can you?
GTFO women's spaces. You do not belong. You just proved it. Again.


I wish we had a like button on this site. THIS a million times!

[Jaxhog]

It is quite depressing to remember all the time and effort spent in trying to give women a more equal shot at the opportunities in life, only to see them being eroded by a bunch of entitled men.

Sure, I have some sympathy for men who truly believe they are women in a man's body. But I'm truly fed up with them telling me that I should be more open hearted towards them. These are men, who in the main part, have grown up and lived with considerable male priviledge, have fathered children etc. I see men being sympathetic towards these 'poor brave dears', who they treat as equals in ways they don't treat me.

Now, I'm being told I have to move aside to let them into my toilets, my changing rooms and my refuges. After all, they are the 'real' women, not me.

All I can say is that if they want me to treat them with respect, then they need to show some respect towards me first.

[Rufustheyawningreindeer]

Posters shitting all over a support thread

Dreadful behaviour

[LaSquirrel]

Well said Jax.

[thebewilderness]

AAK: My guess is that they noticed that people here really don't appreciate trolling and me-railing on support threads and have thus decided that targeting those threads is the best way to get people to say something bannable.
Thanks for that. I was wondering why they suddenly started verbally abusing the women on support threads.

[vickyjgo]

The current system allows a change of birth certificate and the new system will allow a change of birth certificate so no change to how being a woman is defined. I am really concerned that people's mental health is being undermined by allowing fear to over take this debate rather than actually looking at the consequences of any change. It's important to look at these changes but also to understand how little they actually change and so bring things into perspective and bring balance to our mental health.

[Hurradieweltgehtunter]

I am agoraphobic (literally 'fear of the market place', not fear of open spaces, as it is often presented). A lot of my agoraphobia stems from a fear of interacting with men. I don't think this is an uncommon phenomenon amongst women. I will no longer have the sanctuary of single sex spaces to retreat to when trying to access public space/ life.