Why do trans folk need 'extra' rights?

[lurker33]

Imagine a UK without the GRC, and the same equality act as we have now.

Why would trans folk need extra 'rights' over those that the equality act provided?

What rights do trans folk require that they wouldn't already have?

wibble

I agree

I was pootling along quite happy with no idea of the GRC etc then I looked at a thread and when some women mentioned their concerns they were insulted and no explanations were given

It seemed to be ask a reasonable question then called called a terf or transphobic etc

But no one ever explained

And now people with all sorts of different opinions are all pissed off with each other

Oh and some people come up with really really fucking stupid points that they think are mic drop moments and i just sit there and think 'twat'

Nobody ever says what rights are being taken away...ever

I would be really interested to know

For what it's worth, I do have sympathy with all your examples, Snappity. Certainly I think the GRA process could be made more user-friendly, just as MANY bureaucratic processes could be. But I don't think it should be self-declaration, or that medical evidence should be removed, or that any changes should be brought in without thinking VERY carefully about sex vs gender and what impact any changes will have.

lurker
I think another poster suggested that trans people would already be protected by sex discrimination laws anyway

Might have been me?

Everyone is covered by sex discrimination laws, in that it is unlawful to treat someone less favourably because of their sex. Most often women are treated less favourably than men (because, patriarchy) but it could be the other way round.

This is different to gender reassignment discrimination, in that it is unlawful to treat someone less favourably because of their actual or proposed gender reassignment.

So they are two qualitatively different rights. There may be individual circumstances where someone might be able to claim discrimination under both, but they really do rather different things.

I think a couple of weeks ago a poster suggested that gender reassignment as a protected characteristic could be equally protected under the PC of sex, but I didn't really get the argument (I'd need to think about it more carefully). In any case I think there are lots of reasons to maintain gender reassignment as a PC of its own.

Thanks Ofew, I can't remember who it was tbh.

I was thinking that 'gender reassignment' is the same as being GNC. So, if you're a man and acting/presenting in a manner stereotypically attributed to women and being discriminated by it in a way a woman wouldn't be, then this is sex discrimination.

What does 'gender reassignment' actually mean?

Rufus

At this time no rights are being taken away and they may never be, but we have had rights that we had taken away from us before like the right to marry in the 1970s this was not illegal upto that point as trans people were seen as the gender they presented as. Also inheritance in the 1959s in relation to trans men. These rights were slowly won back in court cases over the last 40 years and we are mostly. Back to a place ligally we were in the 1950s, though socially we have also come a long wayz though unlike younger trans people I realise that this can all be lost again at any point and knew when the trans tipping point was proudly declared that this would be the responce because it as happened before.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment covers issues in relation to transitioning gender so being sacked for wanting to transition or needing time off or adaptations to allow for this, also around specificly being discriminated because you are transgendered

Thank you for answering bespin

I don't understand why some people are saying that there are moves to take away any rights

When there dont seem to be

I am probably very ignorant about this bit but in this country and in my limited understanding its quite rare to take anyones rights away, i dont know of any examples

(Im excluding anything brexit related from that statement...fuck knows what the government will come up with next)

Crosspost

But has anyone said that those rights should be taken away

Lurker

Being gender non-conforming probably does fall under sex discrimination i.e. If a woman is sacked because she doesn't wear make up she is being discriminated against because of her sex (a man wouldn't be sacked for not wearing make up).

The definition of gender reassignment in the EA is fairly broad (I quoted it upthread) and covers someone who proposes to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone procedures to change characteristics of their sex. As far as I know this is interpreted broadly, it doesn't mean there needs to be any kind of medical process, it could be as little as choosing to wear clothes associated with the opposite sex.

Do some transgender men/women want to be able to change their birth certificate based on ‘self ID’? What if they are born a man, decide they ID as a woman and change the BC then a few years later, feel they ID as a man, can they then change it back?

From the Stonewall website on reforming the Gender Recognition Act (which is what says whether you can get a certificate to change your birth certificate):

Instead, we would like to see a simple administrative process based on self-determination in line with best practice in other countries, such as Ireland, Malta, Argentina and Norway. With self-determination, a trans person does not need to be diagnosed with a medical condition.

I think Stonewall they also would like to reduce the age to 16:
Currently, trans people aged 16 and 17 cannot apply for a gender recognition certificate because of their age. Instead, we would like to see the age of legal recognition lowered from 18 to 16.

Don't ask me what the process is if anyone wants to change it back. Presumably that has to be allowed too?

Rufus as I said our rights have been. Taken away before the April Ashley case was the biggest example and was due to powerful people protecting themsleves at the expense of us. If you include rights in Northern Ireland then this country as often taken away the rights of poeple when it as needed too.

As I posted on. Another thread it is not so much that people want to take them away but that in a binary society that not allowing us to be seen as our gender means that it does remove rights in a non. Binary society this would not be the case

No, trans people have the rights accorded to their sex and all that's needed is gender non conformity protection against discrimination.

Repeal the GRA or at the very least make it legal to ask to see a GRC. Make the sexs exemptions in th EA a duty not a right. Sorted.

Yes i know that bespin

But you are obviously not the same posters that keep blathering on about on here and twatter and reddit

Beyond that....I can't think of any, and have never heard anyone articulate anything extra that can genuinely be justified (I'm ignoring the "instant facial hair removal on the NHS" demands, and the new one of "this form is too onerous for me to complete" as utter entitlement)

YY. It's strange that they almost never mention the flat or job issues and instead focus on the form filling.

Brill Pratchet how do we do that then in reality where are the services to support that. Also how do you stop people from being discriminated against when they show there grc. What does protecting gender non conforming actually mean is it I will not get beaten in the gents or sexaully assaulted in there which is the main reason I don't. Go in the gents and use the woman's as I have the same general. Need of sefety from men that every other woman as

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity

No they haven't. In most cases this is because they pass reasonably well and were discreet and respectful of women and there was a form of honour system in place. Forcing their way in regardless how male they look is a recent thing.

You see while. There are a number of questions that trans people don't apparently answer even though we do keep trying but they never seem to be the answers that people want. There are some that gender critical people never answer to. The main one being how in a binary gendered sociaty do you meet trans peoples need for safety and legal. Protection from discrimination other than just generally saying proper gender non conforming protections what are they? I suspect I will not get a clear answer to that question.

Yes rufus I also get frustrated with some trans people who decide that they do not need to demonstrate anything but just shout that is not how we gained our rights in the first place so it will not help now

Ereshkigal there as never been anything like a honor system in place the laws that cover these spaces have included us for 8 years before that other laws also did. Occasionally people have been uncivil towards us normally what as happened is that other people have pointed out that the person is being uncivil and that we are using the facility just like anyone else is. This is of course not ture when a trans person is also being uncivil and people ask them. To leave as they would anyone else. We do have uncivil and also bad trans people just like every other part of society does I wish we didn't but we do.

The right to use of sex segregated spaces provided for the opposite sex that they were observed to have at birth

Why do they need that as a right?

Not actually granted by the GRA, but important just the same. So they don't create a scene everytime they use the toilet. So they don't create a scene every time they go to the swimming pool. Imagine a transwomen naked with female primary and secondary sex organs in a male changing room. It is going to cause a reaction. And the male gaze. etc.

Imagine what your life would be like if you have to use the male toilets and male changing rooms every day.

It is that simple.

Well, the thing is females and males need to be considered.
In the non-binary, gender-fluid society, how do you recognise sex-based differences? Won't all spaces become unisex?
What will "trans" be anyways, if all you have to do is "declare" it?
How will you prevent it all from going the road of "Queer Kallis" - where the men took over female spaces and women were forced to leave because they felt uncomfortable?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276075-Sweden-historical-open-air-bath-removes-sex-barriers-for-queer-day-women-driven-home-by-ogling-men

Imagine what your life would be like if you have to use the male toilets and male changing rooms every day.
And this is what I am worried will happen - because any male who wants to use my facilities will be allowed to do so as long as he "declares" he is a woman.

heresy and witchcraft in the second part of your example in a Truely non binary society that would not happen as male objecticsifon of woman would not be a thing as gender would not be a recognised thing