Why do trans folk need 'extra' rights?

[lurker33]

Imagine a UK without the GRC, and the same equality act as we have now.

Why would trans folk need extra 'rights' over those that the equality act provided?

What rights do trans folk require that they wouldn't already have?

No the GRA has no bearing on sex segregated spaces, literally every trans person will tell you that. Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?

Yes. Bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards that I have been on have all had people looking out whether members of the opposite ex are trying to get in. I've been stopped when I accidentally went into the men's room. They are policed, informally and by security if needed.

What makes you think there is a legal process underpinning it when it is entirely unenforceable?

Then why do you want to change the legal process?

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity, there has never been a law on the uk books saying otherwise, however that was clarified and strengthened byt he 2010 Equality Act and 'gender reassignment' characteristic that states in legal terms trans women are regarded as female, and trans men as male, as the default position.

Then why do you want to change the law? What is the benefit to it?

Allowing some exemptions in very restricted circumstances on a case by case basis.

This is what I am worried about, as I do think legal documentation bolsters someone's claim to single-sex spaces. I do not think prisons should ever become unisex spaces, for example.

Trans people are literally just removing some bureaucratic barrier.

You just said it made no difference? So why change it? What about just keeping some kind of gate-keeping process if only to minimize potential impacts on sex-based exemptions?

This whole fuss is being stirred up by transphobes, and believed and supported by the uninformed.

Sorry you feel that way. I personally don't believe in gender ideology, but am a supporter of sex-based rights.

Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?

Yes, I have. Quite a few times actually.

I can't see the need for Stonewall and other trans organisations to push self id and remove the exemptions from sex discrimination from the Equality Act.

Trans people can get documentation changed like passport without any GR process and live as their chosen gender.

The exemptions are for when it is proportionate to meet the aim, and are for both sexes, and pretty well all the time where there is single sex provision it is for privacy and dignity which you would think any one with any decency would respect, or it is for things where there is absolutely no point in going if you are not of that sex like screening for cervical cancer with female staff. For groups like mental health and alcoholism, it has been shown that single sex makes a huge difference to women and increases the uptake massively. It is probably the same for men on a lesser scale. You would think that trans people would probably find more benefit from exploring such issues in trans groups as they will not have things in common with either their adopted nor natal sex once you start exploring the background of your problems together.

All women's shortlists were a proportionate (although not without controversy) means to meet an aim ie, getting better representation of women into the political process. You would think that someone who had lived many years as a male (especially into middle age) before transitioning would have some sense and see this is the aim and not push to be included. But here we seem to enter the Monty Python world of where someone is accepted socially as a woman they should then be entitled to and use their 'rights as a woman' to further their own career. And this is the sort of area we get problems where activists are hell bent on pushing their rights as a woman into areas where common sense would say otherwise (see the ATH manifesto), in order to seek validation and others think that they should have it, in order to be nice.

Then, whenever laws and rules of social engagement are changed to accommodate this, you get those who seek validation for other reasons, those who spot a gap they can exploit which then leaves vulnerable groups powerless to combat, as the frail barriers are no longer there and individual women have to fight for their own safety. This benefits no one, including the transgender people.

I can only think that these issues are pushed to their limit by people who just like pushing to the limits, or feel they have missed out on something that has no relevance to them. And that these pressure groups are full of such individuals taking things to the limits for others. They do not bother with critical thinking or the effect on other people because they are only concerned with having an agenda and furthering it.

I can't see the point of the GRA at all. It seems to have lost its point with same sex marriage and easy access to name changes on documentation, and serves only as a tool with which to beat down the exemptions from sex discrimination. Making the process easier just makes this easier.

"Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity"

Well that's not quite accurate is it. If you go back a few decades someone who went into a school girls changing room and showed the girls his penis would have been arrested.

I'm not sure of the exact date that changed, but it is a change.

Some would say that was a vast improvement of course.

Well that's not quite accurate is it. If you go back a few decades someone who went into a school girls changing room and showed the girls his penis would have been arrested.
I'm not sure of the exact date that changed, but it is a change.

I am not sure that that is quite legal even now

Back to the point I made on the other thread, if self ID is such a small deal, why the absolutely huge effort, bullying, silencing, insidious political lobbying to force it through. If it’s such a nonevent then why try to silence debate? I mean if it is literally just about paperwork, and no actual rights or entitlements will change, what’s the point of the effort? People don’t generally plough such energy and resources into something relatively meaningless. Alright I’ve seen individuals have a punch-up over who gets on the bus first, but not large groups of people expending masses of time and resources arguing over whether they use their contactless debit card or there oyster card to get on the tube.

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity

Have you ever seen anyone police who enters sex-segregated spaces anywhere in your life?

Assume you’re talking about toilets here, rather than eg prisons?

I don’t care a lot about toilets. I do care a lot about prisons.

Do you think you might be slightly underinformed about what the uninformed ‘vocal minority’ have an issue with, here?

seems to take hold amongst a very small vocal minority

Not a vocal minority. Four fifths of the population. Only 18% of Britons back legislative change to the GRA.

You can cast MN feminists as a very small vocal minority all you like. It won't make it true. MN feminists represent the vast majority of the country.

You guys are really going to have change the record, now we finally have two robust sets of polling.

No one asked me if I minded males entering spaces I reasonably expect to be free of their sex.

Trans people are literally just removing some bureaucratic barrier.

I wish to assert my boundary to keep males out. Are my personal boundaries just a 'bureaucratic barrier'?

I think not. My boundaries are my rights.

That's what they 'are literally just removing'.

Melamin if he is a 'woman' it becomes legal. As legal as a woman changing in front of young girls.

Back to the point I made on the other thread, if self ID is such a small deal, why the absolutely huge effort, bullying, silencing, insidious political lobbying to force it through. If it’s such a nonevent then why try to silence debate? I mean if it is literally just about paperwork, and no actual rights or entitlements will change, what’s the point of the effort? People don’t generally plough such energy and resources into something relatively meaningless. Alright I’ve seen individuals have a punch-up over who gets on the bus first, but not large groups of people expending masses of time and resources arguing over whether they use their contactless debit card or there oyster card to get on the tube.

Very, very, very , very, very good point.

Any TRA's want to step up and answer that one?

So, garam, are you arguing that they would or wouldn't need any extra rights, I can't tell?

Melamin if he is a 'woman' it becomes legal. As legal as a woman changing in front of young girls.

Well now I'm seeing the point - if you want to flash your willy around at women and girls in a single sex environment, then of course the GRA and reducing any hurdles makes perfect sense.

This is ALL about birth certificates. It is why anyone who has not bothered up to now to get a GRC wants one. They say over and over it does not control day to day rights.

But it does control the ability to change the birth certificate.

Or, more importantly, right now a birth certificate can only be changed if a doctor accepts that there is a medical reason for allowing that to occur.

So to get one you have to go through the medical assessment and establish proof of need and a medical diagnosis.

The 4900 who have done this - completely in line with the estimates given to parliament by doctors in 2004 when the law was debated - have had that medical gatekeeping.

The consultation document on changes says that the GRA is not working for the people it was created for because so 'few' have one. When it IS clearly in line with predictions when it was written.

It would almost certainly not have been written as it was if the belief was there would be up to 100 times as many applicants and that the vast majority would not have any medical gatekeeping.

I have a GRC and an altered birth certificate via it so have a vested interest, obviously.

But I absolutely believe that medical assessment should stand as the only way to alter a birth record. We should never set the dangerous precedent of putting that solely into the hands of the owner to change as they wish at any point in their life.

My own view is that intersex people (who are NOT trans at all but some of whom have used the GRA to reregister) should unequivocally have that option. And doctors would automatically agree.

Even though I gained from it I am not personally sure that as a transsexual I should have been allowed. But I am willing to put that trust in doctors to decide on the rules for who should and who shouldn't - even if it disenfranchised me as a result. Because it ought to be their say as to how to interpret sex, which is in effect what this means.

Create a new Gender Identity Bill to give all the rights that the trans activists want with regards to changing all aspects of legal gender in an easy manner.

But draw the line at allowing sex to be changed just because you think it should. That needs to remain the decision of a doctor.

No idea. They already have either male or female rights which, for the most part, are the same. Those that are in place to protect females (are there any in place to protect males from females?) are there for a reason. Sound, biological reasons which everyone knows.

I have seen people policing who enters toilets actually. I’VE seen women complain and kick up a fuss when a clearly male person tried to enter, and I’ve been told I had to walk to the other side of a building to use the ladys’ when the single gents cubicle was free and easily accessible. Amazingly, I didn’t have a massive hissy fit. I did have a jolly good moan however, about the ladys’ being in an inaccessible place and more difficult for disabled women, like myself, to get to. What I didn’t do, is insist I used the gents, because I’m not a man, so the facility was not put there for my use.
This was in the days before the EA by the way, so there was no accessible disabled toilet, but the key point here I think is that my first reaction was to point out how people of my own sex, and disabled people were put at a disadvantage, not to assert my belief that I should force my way into other peoples private spaces.

Oh yes, I have just thought of a right that protects males from females. The one that protects inherited titles. Says it all, really.

Thank you, homefromthehills.

So.. from your point of view you think there is one extra 'right' that transfolk need, and that is to be able to change the birth certificate to match that of their perceived sex?

If so, why is it necessary to change the birth certificate in this way? What additional protection does this provide?

The flip : if birth certificates are irrelevant abolish them for everyone. If you don't want that then obviously birth certificates do matter.

Yes, birth certificates matter. For accurate, factual record reasons. Not personal identity validation.

Hi Snappity, I didn't say they didn't matter. I was asking why they need to be changed?

I have a birth certificate, it’s somewhere in my cupboard stuffed into the bag where I keep my important documents. The last time it’s saw the light of day was when I took it to the solicitor for my divorce proceedings. Apart from that, I can’t think of a single occasion where I’ve actually needed it. It can be used for ID purposes in conjunction with other things, such as gas bills or DWP documents, if the person doesn’t have a passport or driving license, but all this does is confirm the name and address. You can change your name quite easily for about £40, then change all your documents on the strength of your deed poll certificate, so why does anyone need their birth certificate to be changed?
Like I keep banging on, why would so many people go to so much effort to change something so inconsequential?

Yes. Bathrooms, changing rooms, hospital wards that I have been on have all had people looking out whether members of the opposite ex are trying to get in. I've been stopped when I accidentally went into the men's room. They are policed, informally and by security if needed.

amazing, your experience is the polar opposite of every bathroom, changing room and hospital ward I have ever been on

Then why do you want to change the legal process?

Trans people want to relieve the bureaucracy of getting a new birth certificate

Trans people have always had access to the sex-segregated spaces that match their identity, there has never been a law on the uk books saying otherwise, however that was clarified and strengthened byt he 2010 Equality Act and 'gender reassignment' characteristic that states in legal terms trans women are regarded as female, and trans men as male, as the default position.

Then why do you want to change the law? What is the benefit to it?

Trans people aren't asking to change the law, they are campaigning for GRA reform, I think you misunderstand the difference.

Allowing some exemptions in very restricted circumstances on a case by case basis.

This is what I am worried about, as I do think legal documentation bolsters someone's claim to single-sex spaces. I do not think prisons should ever become unisex spaces, for example.

But trans people already have access to single-sex spaces that match their identity on a self-id basis, that underpins the 'gender reassignment' characteristic

Trans people are literally just removing some bureaucratic barrier.

You just said it made no difference? So why change it? What about just keeping some kind of gate-keeping process if only to minimize potential impacts on sex-based exemptions?

Because only people who have never understood or have digested misinformation about GRA, EA 2010, and 'gender reassignment characteristic' think it is in any way gatekeeping who has access to these spaces.

This whole fuss is being stirred up by transphobes, and believed and supported by the uninformed.

Sorry you feel that way. I personally don't believe in gender ideology, but am a supporter of sex-based rights.

I'm more interested in helping and lift up women across the board in a positive way, than spend my time on a fools errand attacking a minority group that relies on total misunderstandings of current laws

Garam, but you just don’t understand only works if you’re making an effort to understand the views of the other side.
Please can you answer the questions I’ve asked in this thread?
Why is changing birth cert so important? What actual material difference does it make to anyone’s life? If it’s such an inconsequential thing, why all the effort and resources, no debate and behind closed doors political charm offensive necessary?
If you want me to understand things you need to answer questions, otherwise how can I understand?

Garam, you're still not making any sense. Why do transfolk need their birth certificate changing?

I understand that they might want to change their birth certificate, but why is it necessary?