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Original poster

Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

703 replies

Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 08:15

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

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Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 02:04

If someone chucks a bucket of water over you, you'll still be wet even if you identify as dry.

Absolutely.

Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 02:05

Of course, with toddlers, it's possible to go "yes dear, here's an extra plate for your friend" knowing that they will eventually grow out of it.

Haha yes Grin

Original poster
Dragoncake · 05/07/2018 07:55

I badgered Glitched for an alternative definition on the 'adult human female' thread. You showed up! Thank you.

"Woman = adult human female (including transwomen)
Man = adult human male (including transmen)"

My biggest question is, how. How can 'adult human female' include transwomen? What do they have in common with the adult human females?

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Original poster
Dragoncake · 05/07/2018 07:57

Bespin I think I understood that you see 'woman' as having two separate meanings, a social meaning (which includes transwomen) and a biological meaning (which doesn't). Is that correct?

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Original poster
Dragoncake · 05/07/2018 08:00

So many amazing comments on here. Fermats, I am still pondering your really interesting philosophy post up thread.

"Call your mother" is fantastic Smile

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Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 08:04

Red: what I find deeply offensive is his/her clear assumption that we are all so stupid that we will be blinded and over-awed by a wall of pomo text and a swamp of relativistic waffle.

This.

Coughy · 05/07/2018 08:05

*Noted Detroit-born philosopher Eminem once said:

‘I am whatever I say i am/If I wasn’t, then why would I say I am’*

Brilliant Grin

Coughy · 05/07/2018 08:06

Aaaarghhhh

SweetheartNeckline · 05/07/2018 08:06

Someone I spoke to thinks woman has more of a social meaning similar to "anyone who is oppressed in a patriarchal society as they're perceived feminine". It's too close to "non-man" for me.

Bespin · 05/07/2018 08:09

Hi Dragoncake yes there are diffent aspects. To this. As Ereshkigal said and I would. Like to discuss if people don't see us as women do we stop being woman, that is a good question. So my internal sence of self says to me I'm a woman it as done so most of my life since I have been aware of it, no matter how much I have also ignored it or not recognised it or fought against it it as never changed one bit so. The answer is no it would not stop us being woman, but what it would. Do. And does do is stops us socially when people don't recognise us for who we are. When this happens it can be emontional hard the worst case I ever had was having to try to buy something which took over an hour and the person clearly not wishing. To see me as a woman and me not being able. To leave as I had to buy the thing. There are other times when people sometimes do it to show that they know my place and it can happen when in a meeting I make a point they don't agree with.

So if you got a lot of the things people want on here it would not stop us being an woman it would just make it harder to live our lives and as happened in America we would just go on living them probably with our heads down

Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 08:10

have decided that it is a function of being so privileged that you have nothing more pressing to do than contemplate your navel philosophy. This renders you oblivious to the needs of those dealing with the real world and thus makes you completely unsuitable to be anywhere near social policy.

I concur.

Offred · 05/07/2018 08:14

That makes no sense bespin TBH.

It is highly unlikely that anyone will see you as a woman. People will see you as a transwoman, some people will not mind treating you as if they believe you are a woman. Others will find this difficult for different reasons and their responses will be variable.

If what you are wanting is for people to see you as a woman then there is no power on earth that can actually make that happen.

Offred · 05/07/2018 08:15

If other people don’t see you as a woman it has zero bearing on whether you think of yourself as a woman or not.

Offred · 05/07/2018 08:16

Biological women who need validation from others to this degree are pilloried or sent on ‘emotional resilience’ courses...

Bespin · 05/07/2018 08:22

Offered I think. That was the point I was making it. Does not. Yes a lot of people see me as a trans woman which is what I am they afford me. The rights of all other woman to which I am greatful I live in. A society that does except this I could have been born in one that does not and my life would have been a lot harder.
In real life a lot of people just see me as a woman you know how I know that it's because most people you interact with don't actually.pay that much attention to you they use the broadest. Catagorys for you and once. Your in that catagory of woman most dont look further

Offred · 05/07/2018 08:23

The best you could hope for in satisfying the drive for validation is to compel people to treat you as a woman. This will not change the fact that people will still see you as a transwoman. It merely compels behaviour.

This is actually something which a lot of anti-discrimination law tries to do which is why I suppose it is being lobbied for.

However, the main reason I am opposed to it is that quite simply other anti-discrimination law protects people who satisfy the conditions of the group from discrimination based on the shared characteristics of the group.

I would support protection for gender identity, I will never support gender being conflated with sex. Feelings of gender identity do not confer the characteristics of sex class and sex class is essential for women’s protection.

Bespin · 05/07/2018 08:25

I don't need emotional validation it's just hard when someone is being a dick to you for a prolonged period and you don't want to cause a scene so you just go along with it. Like often happens with men

Offred · 05/07/2018 08:28

I’m pretty confident that within a few seconds the vast majority of people (pretty confident all women but perhaps not all men) will have read you as trans and then how they treat you will be dictated by how they feel about trans people.

One of the reasons I worry about this recent stuff is I feel it will weaken protections for trans people and women but it will antagonise a lot of people so the social acceptance will also reduce.

Glitched · 05/07/2018 08:28

@Dragoncake

Adult human female does not contain transwomen. Woman contains transwomen.

Woman = adult human female (including transwomen)

That's why I put brackets around it.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/07/2018 08:30

I came across something which I thought might be interesting in the context of this discussion, about When to use "woman" and "female" in scientific writing . In particular note that for some reason there can be a reluctance to use 'female' whereas there is no such issue with 'male'. And that this frequently leads to the pairing of 'women' with 'male'. Whether deliberate or not (I suspect not in scientific writing) this allows blurring of the boundaries on one side to include people who are not female while leaving the other clear. I would also note that 'women and males' is a construction which is either sexistly transexclusionary (if 'women' is taken to mean anything other than 'adult human female' then where the heck are transmen in that?) or its, well, 'proper men' and non-men.

I seem to have hit a limit on the number of times I can view that site before needing to register which I CBA to do but it looked like there might be some interesting links to related topics.

CanineEnigma · 05/07/2018 08:35

Woman = adult human female (including transwomen)

So basically woman = adult human female (including males who say they are one).
So really any human who you can reasonably assume to be an adult. I’ll go and tell my DH that he should apply for the Woman in a leadership scheme at his work then, great news!

Transwoman includes woman, seahorse includes horse.

Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 08:36

All this academia is an insult to women. Real women in the real world. Yunno, the one that exists as a material reality that we all occupy (as opposed to the made up pomo / Judith Butler / 6th form essay / thought experiment Orwellian wank world that trans ideology comes from).

Yes. The Emperor is as naked as the day a woman gave birth to him.

Original poster
Dragoncake · 05/07/2018 08:37
Confused Glitched Okay, so you are also saying that 'woman' has two unrelated meanings? Social and biological?

'Woman':

  1. Adult human female (bio)
  2. Transwoman. (social)

Is that correct?

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ErrolTheDragon · 05/07/2018 08:39

Bad use of brackets, glitched. It seems what you meant would be much more clearly expressed as
Woman = adult human females and transwomen.

Compare (daft example of same constructs off the top of my head):

Small harness - suitable for ferrets(including chihuahuas) versus
Small harness - suitable for ferrets and chihuahuas

Actually what you meant in full was
Woman = (adult human females - transmen) + transwomen
Men = (adult human males - transwomen ) + transmen

Is that really what you think people mean when they use the word 'man'?

Original poster
Dragoncake · 05/07/2018 08:46

Bespin, thank you for clarifying. It's good that you are happy to be seen as trans. I totally agree with Offred that compelling people to pretend otherwise would be unhelpful.

'Social womanhood' skirts too close to sex stereotypes for me though.

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