Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

I like womyn

Its like woman but with the word 'man' removed

Old feminist word from the 70's

(I know its been around as an alternative spelling for years before that )

I would support protection for gender identity, I will never support gender being conflated with sex. Feelings of gender identity do not confer the characteristics of sex class and sex class is essential for women’s protection.

This.

I’m in some ways not surprised to see the spectre of Judith Butler haunting this thread but isn’t one of the problems with Butler that she obfuscates and turns back on her own arguments? Here citing Foucault, later citing ideas about language and performativity? Also if, as many posters here seem to be, we are talking about the material conditions of women Butler just doesn’t cut it. I prefer Nussbaum have you read her critique of Butler? Here’s a section:

 ‘Many feminists in America are still theorizing in a way that supports material change and responds to the situation of the most oppressed. Increasingly, however, the academic and cultural trend is toward the pessimistic flirtatiousness represented by the theorizing of Butler and her followers. Butlerian feminism is in many ways easier than the old feminism. It tells scores of talented young women that they need not work on changing the law, or feeding the hungry, or assailing power through theory harnessed to material politics. They can do politics in safety of their campuses, remaining on the symbolic level, making subversive gestures at power through speech and gesture. This, the theory says, is pretty much all that is available to us anyway, by way of political action, and isn't it exciting and sexy?  In its small way, of course, this is a hopeful politics. It instructs people that they can, right now, without compromising their security, do something bold. But the boldness is entirely gestural, and insofar as Butler's ideal suggests that these symbolic gestures really are political change, it offers only a false hope. Hungry women are not fed by this, battered women are not sheltered by it, raped women do not find justice in it, gays and lesbians do not achieve legal protections through it.’ 

faculty.georgetown.edu/irvinem/theory/Nussbaum-Butler-Critique-NR-2-99.pdf

This is one of the things that always comes up and we can never check because we don't go around outing ourselves and completing a servay as to if people knew we were trans or not. What I'm doing is sharing my lived experiance from my view point. What you are doing is telling me that view point is not correct with no evidence to suggest you are right because you know that I also can not present anyone elses evidence though I have been told on a number of occasions when I have choosen to out myself to people that they didn't know so I can only assume that there are people who don't know

bespin can I just confirm - you're a trans woman/transwoman?

There will be some who genuinely didn’t know. Out of those people who state they didn’t know many will be pretending they didn’t know in order to be kind because most people are now aware that it matters to trans people that they pass and they also want to be kind.

It’s not logical to claim that human beings are not good at identifying a person’s sex. This is particularly important for women who are at risk from men as well as needing to know who they can reproduce with. Since only the reproduction stuff matters to men I believe they will be more likely to miss it. Women will also be more likely to lie to be kind because of socialisation and the fear of harm from biological males.

ah sorry - you said so above, apologies.

I like womyn too Rufus.

But the laws and institutions which govern my life call me a woman. So I will fight for that word to continue to have a tangible, corporeal meaning. Woman is a material reality not an abstraction. And it is as dehumanizing as fuck to even contemplate otherwise.

All and any alternative definitions of woman dehumanize girls and women. They are anti-woman, deeply misogynistic and inhumane.

Judith Butler is a menace. Her writing is so lacking in clarity that most of the bright young things who read her don't see how unradical she actually is and how her pretentious philosophising bolsters neo-liberalism AKA the status fucking quo.

Also, the vast majority of transwomen I have seen talking about this believe that people are reading them as female despite being very obviously trans (including the two in my social circle).

People would never tell them, I have never told them, despite being GC, because I know it would hurt them. One I knew before transition so they know I know they are trans, the other if they ‘outed themself’ I might be inclined to say ‘Oh I didn’t know!’ because I don’t see any point in hurting individuals when the issues I have with this rhetoric are legal and social, not with individual people.

Glitched your definition doesn't make sense - try drawing Venn diagrams of it.

A side thought ... many talented young women aren't engaged in these wordy pomo discussions at all. They simply don't have the luxury of time because they're working hard, sometimes all too aware of the continuing ramifications of good old fashioned sexism and discrimination. Some of them may be very privileged but with their feminism quietly and solidly informed by the reality of trying to make their way in the many areas still dominated by men. A student writing an essay on 'women in engineering' will almost certainly know what a woman is! Of course, if you start talking about Foucault she'll be liable to wonder WTF pendulums and the rotation of the earth have to do with feminism ...

"there is a male version of gender critical towards trans men but it exhibits itself in a totally different way to this"

I would be interested in hearing a bit more about this if you're around bespin.

Hi speakingwoman I'm at work so not a lot of time also I'm not a trans man so don't wish to speak as an expert on someone else's Experiance. The issues I have talked to people about have been around issues of being excepted in social groups of men and having to be one of the lads or to prove they are a man in a social context, in some poeple this as sometimes lead to pressure in them to take up sexist ideas even if they turely beleive in them. But like I say I'm a trans man might wish to talk about this more than me as just because we are trans does not mean we understand each others experiances and I have always learned a lot from talking to my trans brothers

Completely agree beach

I just like the excluding men bit

Bespin if a transsexual person generally passes some people will notice and others won't. The person should be treated with as much kindness and dignity as everyone else.

It sounds like you are not trying to compel a particular response, which I very much respect.

I don’t think there is a ‘male version’ that is materially different TBH.

Some men support are GC and other men don’t. Some men who don’t are opposed to the ideology not because they are critical re gender but because they believe that gender exists but that gender is an innate characteristic rooted in biology. These men are often sexist, transphobic and homophobic and they are often part of the religious right (but not always, this is where brocialists also fit in). The vast majority of men haven’t really thought about it IMO.

Just like women really...

Exactly Dragoncake that is the reality of it I have meet so many trans woman who think they pass and clearly they don't which is the same as saying we always know the 2 are both not true I know I don't always pass and gave up years ago trying but I also know thst sometimes people don't genuinely know

The issues I have talked to people about have been around issues of being excepted in social groups of men and having to be one of the lads or to prove they are a man in a social context, in some poeple this as sometimes lead to pressure in them to take up sexist ideas

That is the complete opposite of 'a male version of gender critical'. That's good old misogynists bullying females to conform to masculine stereotypes.

When I filled in the consultation I wrote a fair amount about the requirement to ‘live in the opposite gender’ being oppressive, unhelpful and unachievable. It is where, IMO, the pressure to ‘pass’ comes from.

I suspect that’s where I have common ground with you bespin. I find it offensive and oppressive all this stuff about ‘passing’. I would love it if the expression of someone’s identity was unremarkable and not categorised into masculine and feminine at all.

As I said I'm not an expert in trans men and I think
Offered is right most of it comes from these type of men I'm not trying to make a direct comparison with gender critical woman and also as said most. People don't think. In these terms

Men who behave like that towards transmen are not gender critical. The men who behave like that are simply expressing the culture of toxic masculinity. Either they have read the transman as male and are just behaving how they normally do or they have read the transman as female and are trying to get them to prove masculinity in order to be part of the group.

I don’t know why this would be particularly surprising to transmen though since what they are identifying into is masculinity rather than maleness and masculinity/feminity is inherently sexist.

interesting bespin thank you.

have your posted about your own story anywhere on the board? not pressuring you, am just interested.

I guess I always end up thinking that the solution is to fight for feminine men and masculine women and celebrate them since that would self-evidently make the world a better place. There's some reason that isn't happening.

I do wish that more trans men would Enguged on here with people as I think there view is valuable but when I have raised these issues in the past some unfortunatly have seen it as not there issue as its mostly aimed at trans woman, some though have been amazingly supportive

speaking woman no I share bits that are relivent to discussion to back up points and base them in my lived experiance. I unfortunately would not wish to share my Story due to the number of poeple who would feel they have the right to be critical of it or. Attack me for sharing it

I have wondered in the past if it’s too big an ask re transmen TBH since there is going to be the elephant in the room of knowledge that GC feminists will read them as female.

I was grateful that Stephen Whittle gave it a go but was quite disappointed that most of the posts were about holidays etc

I don’t think though that individual perspectives would be particularly meaningful to me in terms of ideology, social policy, law, science etc