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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty

302 replies

LittleLebowski · 02/07/2018 06:30

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44661079
Looks like it will be on today's show. mobile.twitter.com/search?q=%23VictoriaLIVE&src=hashtag_click&f=live

OP posts:
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18
AnOpinion · 02/07/2018 13:29

David and Goliath.

We can do it.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 13:31

There is evidence that social transition and puberty blockers make desistance less likely. High desistance rates would weaken the argument of the older males.

Compare and contrast Dr Polly Carmichael/GIDs approach (which I believe reports 80%+ of young people not pursuing medical intervention, with say Mermaids /Dr Webberley's GenderGP approach.

it is very interesting to observe the sources of support for the latter /hostility for the former

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/07/2018 13:32

I feel like I’m being really stupid but do we test any drugs on children or just introduce them carefully once they’re tested on adults?

Not a stupid question at all - it’s a good question.

The answer is a bit of both. A drug is usually developed for the adult market and then either titrated (so lower doses) are cautiously used in children or specific paediatric trials are conducted. Children aren’t just lighter adults though so you can often get a drug that’s fine in adults but harmful in children - a common example would be aspirin, which can trigger Reye’s syndrome in children and so is not recommended for under 12s. That was in response kids being given it and dying. It’s a minefield.

It’s always preferable to actually conduct a trial in the population you’re going to market it to in the real world.

The problems in doing so are many - so much so that the EU actually has a ruling that new drugs should include the possibility of child trials unless there’s a compelling reason to (for example a disease that doesn’t happen in children.) to encourage drug companies they allow extra time to cash in on the patent if they do it. They still generally don’t though.

The problem is that it’s so, so hard to conduct trials on kids. The ethical hoops you have to jump through are massive, quite rightly. I’ve worked on two paediatric cancer trials in my career and both, I mean I cannot even begin to go into how complex and regulated they were, but trust me - very, very tight regulation. As it should be.

This link has some good stuff about ethics. Note the words ‘vulnerable population’ appear about a billion times... www.who.int/ictrp/child/ethics/en/

WhyDidIEatThat · 02/07/2018 13:36

Thanks, I look forward to reading that - I assumed we simply couldn’t do any clinical trials at all in children so anything we use, even calpol, would technically be ‘off label’. I don’t know why I thought this!

ResistanceIsNecessary · 02/07/2018 13:38

they are trying to produce the evidence you are so desperate for but these things take time.

So do you think it's OK to keep dosing hundreds of kids up in the meantime, and if it causes them permanent damage you just chalk it up as a bit of collateral damage?

Do you honestly not see the problem with giving a drug to children that has not been tested or monitored for its long term side effects?

We prevent children from drinking alcohol and smoking. We worry about their diet and monitor their sugar intake. We keep an eye on their weight and make sure they get enough exercise. We put them in height and weight appropriate car seats to ensure their safety when in a vehicle. How on earth does this level of care and nurture reconcile with encouraging them to pursue courses of medical treatment which could permanently damage their bodies?

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 02/07/2018 13:42

middle aged males are pushing for total access to female spaces without medical treatment while campaigning for kids to be put on damaging drugs that will affect them for the rest of their lives

This can't be emphasised enough.

Why are these mainly males pushing for the medicalisation and sterlisation of children? Advocating that they have their healthy young bodies butchered when there is no way of knowing whether these young people would grow out of their dysphoria?

I have heard the excuse being that they would have liked to have had access to these treatments when they were young.

Why then is the LAW being changed such that no medical intervention or diagnosis is required for adults to change 'sex' on ther documentation?

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 02/07/2018 13:43

BTW bespin

Can you address your fullstop usage please? Your posts are infuriating to read, and not because I disagree with most of what you say

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/07/2018 13:44

whydid a LOT of stuff is used off label in the sense that it’s been OKd in adults but never formally tested in kids.
These blockers are being used off label in two senses really - firstly used for an indication they’ve not been tested in and secondly in that they’re being used on children.

Your point about calpol is actually an interesting one - even things like new delivery modes ofbthe same drug get tested, so for example if you formulate a type of ibuprofen or something that has a coating that’s supposed to dissolve in the gut rather than the stomach, that gets tested too. The rules are fairly strict. Even when you make a generic copy of the drug after it’s fine off patent you need to test it to make sure it’s within x% of the original in terms of how it acts.

There are entire departments/governments depts/professional careers in pharmacbigilance and regulatory activities. It’s a big thing.

Pratchet · 02/07/2018 13:45

so we know what they're going to focus their PR on

Buzzfeed just retweeted this 18 month old article.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 13:47

Twitter response to the Victoria Debyshire show.
(context)
pic 2 is the embedded tweet

Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
WhyDidIEatThat · 02/07/2018 13:48

Its fascinating, thank you. Apols for derail.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 13:50

Twitter response to the Victoria Debyshire show.
(context)

Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
Baroquehavoc · 02/07/2018 13:58

There seems to be a group of people who are very invested in ensuring some children a given puberty blockers.

I'm really not sure what motivates them.

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 02/07/2018 14:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WhyDidIEatThat · 02/07/2018 14:09

I think maybe because puberty itself brings lasting changes and makes any later gender affirming (genuinely don’t know the current terminology) action more difficult?

I met someone last year who transed lots of young people and was desperate to find out more about puberty blockers etc but it was like talking to a politician - he just kept saying ‘yes male privilege is real and all my patients are struck by the gain or loss of it’ but that wasn’t remotely what I was asking 🙄

Baroquehavoc · 02/07/2018 14:20

I'm not convinced by the 'buys time' argument for puberty blockers. What advantage does a child of 15 or 16 who has been stopped from going through puberty have over another child who has been through puberty? They are no nearer to being their desired sex. If anything, I would guess that forced onto puberty blockers would lead to them having less in common with their peers who have been through puberty. Wouldn't that lead to isolation and increase the feelings of believing that there is something wrong with their bodies?

gendercritter · 02/07/2018 14:29

The problem is that it’s so, so hard to conduct trials on kids. The ethical hoops you have to jump through are massive, quite rightly. I’ve worked on two paediatric cancer trials in my career and both, I mean I cannot even begin to go into how complex and regulated they were, but trust me - very, very tight regulation. As it should be.

This post fascinated me.

I have M.E. There has historically been a huge debate around whether the causes of M.E are psychosomatic. There is enough (good quality) research happening now to say that it isn't but most of that is happening in the States. There are a sizeable number of psychiatrists here in the UK who still get lucrative research grants to explore whether M.E patients are ill because they have false illness beliefs and are essentially attention-seeking. The BBC has given them a decent amount of coverage over the years incidentally, as has the Guardian.

I don't doubt some of these psychiatrists care about M.E patients but if you really look at things closely, M.E has been an absolutely wonderful milch-cow for them.

There have recently been a study on children on something called the Lightning Process. It's a ridiculous thing where the severely ill patient is supposed to repeatedly stand up, throw their arms in the air and say 'I feel fantastic'. Bear in mind some children with M.E are bedbound and unable to talk/stand/bear light. It's ridiculous.

Studies weren't done on adults first, the team went straight to testing children. Vulnerable children. The M.E community protested loudly, saying it wasn't ethical and the Lightning Process was pseudo-science but it went ahead regardless.

The LP isn't a drug and so you could say, well why does it matter? But some patients who have paid for it privately (out of desperation) are so unwell the LP has made them seriously deteriorate. One child attempted suicide after doing the LP because it didn't cure him and he was made to feel he'd failed.

It's just interesting that there are all these rules and ethics committees but when you get a group of adults with enough power, these things get swept aside so easily.

I'm trying to say it's not just the trans issue where this is happening, I guess. And where it is happening it's pretty clear to see what's behind it because it'll be somewhat similar each time - money, status, access to children quite possibly. Humans are flawed and sometimes catastrophic errors of judgment occur. We have to keep shouting about them as loudly as we can.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 14:30

I think there are two aspects, firstly that the developing adult features of the young person's sex heighten dysphoric distress.
Secondly perhaps that physically if a young person does not develop an adult sexed body, with the later use of cross-sex hormones they will likely appear more convincingly of the gender they identify with.

Jackie Green (Susie Green's child) featured in a BBC documentary in 2012 competing in a beauty pageant.

Article:
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2235781/Jackie-Green-Transgender-beauty-queen-praises-amazing-family-ahead-BBC-documentary.html

gendercritter · 02/07/2018 14:30

A decent amount of uncritical coverage that should have said. That's been key.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 14:43

It's just interesting that there are all these rules and ethics committees but when you get a group of adults with enough power, these things get swept aside so easily.

Fairplay for Women
twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1004309925022093312

NB Bex Stinson is head of trans inclusion at Stonewall www.stonewall.org.uk/people/bex-stinson

Victoria Derbyshire show today - transgender children buying time by delaying puberty
Bowlofbabelfish · 02/07/2018 14:53

It's just interesting that there are all these rules and ethics committees but when you get a group of adults with enough power, these things get swept aside so easily.

Slight derail but I did want to answer this one and I will return to the point...

Ahhh but ME - who does that predominantly affect.... wimmin! So it’s easily brushed aside. Ditto all the other diagnoses that have vague symptoms like fibro or CFS.

FWIW, and if it restores any of your faith in science the LP is seen as utter quackery in the circles I move in. There have been some new studies going on which seem to point to some kind of something that either results in, or results from a mitchochondrial problem - so the cell, somehow, isn’t getting, or maybe is getting but isn’t using, the energy it should be. ME is real.
Ditto fibro, although that’s a tough but to crack. It’s very hard to get a decent population into a trial. There are some trials going ahead (I didn’t work on it but people I worked with did) for pain in fibro - the problem is it’s one of those things where something is going on, but no one is sure what, and it’s hard to study because a lot of people (for which read women) get labelled with it as a disease of exclusion, so if you’ve got say 8% of those people who actually have something like lupus or rheumatoid issues your trial will fail.

Anyway your point is a good one - money, access to children etc. Look at Andrew Wakefield- he was doing painful, unnecessary and unethical experiments on his child population to prove his pet theory (he did non needed gut biopsies.) that’s the sort of thing that the rules are designed to prevent, but when a certain amount of hysteria meets private practice, bad things happen. He couldn’t have done that in a pharma trial because he’d never have passed the first hurdles.) but in private practise.... well you get what I mean.

Baroquehavoc · 02/07/2018 14:56

I think there are two aspects, firstly that the developing adult features of the young person's sex heighten dysphoric distress.
Secondly perhaps that physically if a young person does not develop an adult sexed body, with the later use of cross-sex hormones they will likely appear more convincingly of the gender they identify with.

I can see that might be the case for the children with long term gender identity disorders, but what about the higher number of children where it is being misdiagnosed?

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 15:01

I think there must be a lot of pressure on young people questioning their gender identity to anticipate the first and aspire to the second.

I would assume that some older people who do not become transwomen until much later in life may wish for the physical results shown by young people who take puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones.

OldCrone · 02/07/2018 15:04

I can see that might be the case for the children with long term gender identity disorders, but what about the higher number of children where it is being misdiagnosed?

Collateral damage. The adult males pushing this in children don't care about the children they are harming. The more children there are who transition, the stronger their argument that their middle aged AGP is the same thing, and they have always 'felt like a woman'.