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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The mother of Tom Daley's child

999 replies

Pratchet · 01/07/2018 09:27

Congratulations on a healthy baby! Hope the birth went safely and that you are recovering well.

I just hate surrogacy in case you can't tell

OP posts:
Kokeshi123 · 03/07/2018 13:59

Adoptees often suffer a gnawing sense of betrayal, abandonment, guilt, low self-worth, lack of resolution, etc, which colours their entire life - simply because they were 'given away' by their birth mother and they wish on some level they had not been.

The problem is that while it's possible to objectively observe that an individual suffers from an issue such as low self esteem or abandonment issues, and it's possible to claim that "I think that these issues of mine were caused by by being adopted," that does not prove the that was the case. People can say "I think my XYZ issues were caused by [insert possible cause]" but that is not the same as proving that their belief is correct.

It's quite likely that if the hypothetical individual had not been adopted out, they also would have suffered low self esteem but would have attributed it to a different cause.

Certainly, twin studies and sibling-pair adoption studies (the ones which examine siblings who were adopted out versus those who remained with the birth mother) suggest that personal anecdotes about "my issues are caused by my being adopted" may be of dubious value.

Siblings who were kept with the birth mother have a high chance of suffering similar issues to those who were adopted out, except that the ones who remain with the birth mother tend to be worse off, on average.

No doubt these people attribute their low self esteem to other causes--"My mother [i.e. the birthmother] was a dysfunctional parent who parented me poorly and that's what caused my low self esteem and abandonment issues." Etc.

Again, and I'm pointing this out again, longitudinal studies of children who were created through gestational surrogacy indicate, so far, that they are turning out basically "normally" with similar psychological and behavioral profiles to those of children conceived the "regular" way among couples of similar demographics. If we are not seeing evidence that children of GS suffer psychological damage, it makes no sense to keep claiming "But they must do, surely!"

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 03/07/2018 14:11

"I think my XYZ issues were caused by [insert possible cause]" but that is not the same as proving that their belief is correct.

This is crap.

People can be messed up in all sorts of ways, but there are some ways that are specific to adopted kids that people don't share if they weren't adopted ie - the existential issues of 'who am I?', 'where did I come from?', 'why did my mum give me away?', etc. These can gnaw at a person throughout their lives. Just because people can have other issues to deal with such as bereavement, illness, mentally unwell parent, etc, doesn't mean that there aren't some issues that are very specific to having been 'given up' by your mother.

madja · 03/07/2018 14:27

That is spot on Clarice
We wouldn't be human if we didn't ask those questions, even if we knew the adoption took place for good reason.

OlennasWimple · 03/07/2018 14:39

Just because people can have other issues to deal with such as bereavement, illness, mentally unwell parent, etc, doesn't mean that there aren't some issues that are very specific to having been 'given up' by your mother

I completely agree.

IcedPurple · 03/07/2018 14:45

Quick practical husband: Tom Daly and husband purchased this baby in the US in a deliberate attempt to circumvent British law.

That being the case, will they be recognised as the boy's legal parents in the UK? Given that Elton John did something similar I presume they will be, but how can this be the case when commercial surrogacy - quite rightly - is not allowed in Britain?

IcedPurple · 03/07/2018 14:45

Lol at my typo - I meant to write 'quick practical question'.

Obviously.

MrsJayy · 03/07/2018 14:47

They will adopt him (I think)

IcedPurple · 03/07/2018 14:53

That makes sense of sorts I suppose. Would the adoption be done under British or (presumably much more lax) American law? I'm guessing the latter.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 03/07/2018 14:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrsJayy · 03/07/2018 14:57

I am guessing like you he will be adopted in America Toms husband is probably still a citizen

IcedPurple · 03/07/2018 14:58

Didn't know Tom's husband was a Yank. I guess the boy will also be an American citizen?

MargaretCavendish · 03/07/2018 15:01

It is a bit of a loophole, icedpurple - my understanding is that they would still need to get a Parental Rights Order, and that not having paid more than expenses is part of that, and yet people do seem to be able to get them when they have blatantly paid above that. I'm sure there will be people on here who know much more and can correct me if I'm wrong. I guess the practical problem is: even if you don't like how they obtained the child, what good could come of denying the parental rights order? The baby is already not with its mother, who in any case doesn't want to keep him, so if they weren't granted parental rights then the child would have to go into care, which hardly seems in their best interest. And obviously one of them is the biological father so would have rights in that respect, though that will require them to find out...

MargaretCavendish · 03/07/2018 15:04

This page - www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/parenthood-and-parental-orders-surrogacy-law - says that you need a UK parental order even if you have a foreign court order, but I don't know if that would still be true if you'd legally adopted the child in a foreign jurisdiction AND you yourself were a citizen of that country.

IcedPurple · 03/07/2018 15:20

Interesting... I had never heard of such a thing as a Parental Rights Order! But no doubt with their money they'll have hired the best people to figure out all the legalities.

What did Elton Johan and David Furnish do?

BesmirchingMotherhood · 03/07/2018 15:34

I was wondering how they’d do parental rights order without knowing who’s the daddy...

MrsJayy · 03/07/2018 15:41

I have no idea what Eltonand David did although internet says the boys have the same surrogate.

IcedPurple · 03/07/2018 16:21

Presumably they know who the daddy is though? Just that they don't think their son is worthy of the same knowledge?

BesmirchingMotherhood · 03/07/2018 16:51

I wouldn’t assume they do iced - they can mix the sperm so it really is chance.

FurryGiraffe · 03/07/2018 17:04

The child must have a birth certificate though? And surely one of them is named on it as the father? Surely nobody puts themself in the ridiculous position of having to adopt their own child because of some bizarre notion of fatherly equality?

LunaTrap · 03/07/2018 17:05

They've made it clear they don't know who the father is, I don't know how that will work with UK law where one of the IPs has to be the genetic parent. Surely they need to specify? They also 'put in' both a girl and boy embryo.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tom-daley-and-husband-dustin-lance-black-announce-birth-of-baby-boy-robert-who-is-named-after-the-a3875966.html%3famp

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 03/07/2018 17:05

Mmmm. Who reported that post?

KataraJean · 03/07/2018 17:20

The legality of it is an interesting question, though. Don’t you get prosecuted if you assist someone to travel overseas to Dignitas?

PeakPants · 03/07/2018 17:35

Surely nobody puts themself in the ridiculous position of having to adopt their own child because of some bizarre notion of fatherly equality?

In English law, that is normally how it works. The surrogate mother will be recorded as the mother on the birth certificate and the couple will apply to court for something called a parental order which is effectively like adoption and terminates the surrogate mother's legal relationship with the child, just as an adoption would. Even if the male of the couple had provided the sperm, they would usually not be named as father on the birth certificate.

FurryGiraffe · 03/07/2018 17:53

Even if the male of the couple had provided the sperm, they would usually not be named as father on the birth certificate.

Is this the usual practice even if the mother is unmarried (and therefore free to name the biological father on the birth certificate)? I didn't realise that.

FurryGiraffe · 03/07/2018 17:55

I presume in the US the situation varies a bit state by state? I'd rather assumed that their 'progressive' approach to surrogacy had led to biological fathers being named on the birth cert- but that's pure assumption on my part!