Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The mother of Tom Daley's child

999 replies

Pratchet · 01/07/2018 09:27

Congratulations on a healthy baby! Hope the birth went safely and that you are recovering well.

I just hate surrogacy in case you can't tell

OP posts:
lifeisabeachsometimes · 02/07/2018 06:37

This thread was about commerical surrogacy and the buying of babies.

What it exposed to me at least, maybe others have been aware of this all along, the level of hatred towards women from some men. I had no idea it existed to this level. I feel hate like this towards no one, and never have,

43 years on this planet and the venom on here has shocked me. It would shock anyone.

Do we really have men buying babies that hate women this much?

Yes we do clearly. It is a deeply disturbing picture.

The exploitation should not be allowed to continue other than in exceptional and highly regulated cases.

Pratchet · 02/07/2018 06:37

Blimey. I hope someone who accuses a mother of being drunk on no evidence at all does not really work in child-parent relationships.

OP posts:
CosmicCanary · 02/07/2018 06:43

life sadly whenever you talk about the buying and selling of womens bodies no matter in what context the end result is the realization then men (NAM) hate us.

Pratchet · 02/07/2018 06:50

It's the saying 'no' that reveals it. We say 'no' so rarely.

OP posts:
CosmicCanary · 02/07/2018 06:53

I have only just realised the power of NO Pratchet since joining twitter.

The amount of abuse I have received for saying no is shocking. Worringly the men that hate to hear that word are not just typical MRA or incels. They are fathers of daughters, married men and men in high end management careers.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/07/2018 06:56

Well, they better get used to it, because we're not going to stop saying it.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 02/07/2018 07:10

How bizarre that someone awake at the same (interrupted) time of night as me would conclude that anyone awake then would be drunk. Hmm

Funnily enough, one personality trait that will ensure you are pretty much never trusted with other people's deepest feelings is to be judgemental and assuming. Being a sympathetic listener is the way to go.

Years ago I had a conversation with a couple of psychotherapists (mates of my mum when I was a teen) who were disgusted that a child psychologist they'd just met said that CSA 'doesn't really affect children that much' because "children are resilient". We were all open mouthed. It really stuck in my mind.

Even people working in the field with relevant specialisms can be utterly clueless about how trauma plays out.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/07/2018 07:13

Years ago I had a conversation with a couple of psychotherapists (mates of my mum when I was a teen) who were disgusted that a child psychologist they'd just met said that CSA 'doesn't really affect children that much' because "children are resilient". We were all open mouthed. It really stuck in my mind.

I don't even know what to say to that. How did this person get through the certification process without someone noticing that they had absolutely no empathy towards children?

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 02/07/2018 07:22

I don't even know what to say to that. How did this person get through the certification process without someone noticing that they had absolutely no empathy towards children?

It is bizarre isn't it? I think some people go into these things because they are psychological voyeurs with neat and tidy lives and/or they over-estimate their own depth of concern for others. Once in the field they become bored and impatient with human suffering and failure.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 02/07/2018 07:41

Something this thread hasn't considered is the practise of exchanging IVF treatment for women's eggs, which happens in UK clinics. To me this is exploiting poorer women who cannot afford the treatment otherwise and denying them their genetic children.
To answer the question of who is the mother of TD's baby, I think the closest thing he has to a mum is the egg donor.
So in effect this baby has no mum, and I agree it is worrying that no one is thinking about how this could affect the child.

WanderingWavelet · 02/07/2018 08:23

the level of hatred towards women from some men. I had no idea it existed to this level

Didn't Germaine Greer say some decades ago "Women can't afford to realise how much men hate them"? It's fashionable to decry Professor Greer, and try to silence her by ridicule, but she knows what she's talking about.

I'm sorry you had to find this out @lifeisabeachsometimes - it's dangerous dark knowledge. But knowledge is power, and forewarned is forearmed.

IrmaFayLear · 02/07/2018 08:32

Some people are burdened with ethics. Some are not.

One of the scariest posts I've ever read...

LangCleg · 02/07/2018 08:50

Do we really have men buying babies that hate women this much?

Yes. We also have rich women buying babies who don't care about the poor women selling them. And this is why buying babies should not be allowed.

DickTERFin · 02/07/2018 09:15

Altruistic surrogacy, whilst not without its potential problems, is at least starting from a philithropic place and with tight legislation could be a wonderful thing.

Commercial surrogcy is disgusting. You are renting a women’s body and buying a baby - all the nopes. It should be banned world wide.

Having a baby is not a right and although it is tough for couples in same sex relationships, especially gay men because their orientation is not a choice but it does exclude them from having bio children together, but our empathy for their situation should not cloud our judgment on the human rights of women and children not to be used as commodities.

woman11017 · 02/07/2018 09:24

Western men are caught in a demographic time bomb. Many are also in a prison of their own racism. No amount of fake wombs or purchased babies can help them now. Smile

ItIsOnlyAnOpinion · 02/07/2018 09:49

Next they will be after the new synthetic ovaries scientists were creating for ovarian cancer survivors.

Wherismymind · 02/07/2018 09:50

Does someone giving a kidney to their dad make the whole organ trade ok? Does the 'happy hooker' make all prostitution ok? Just because there are some kids that are happy with being a product of surrogacy, or there are some women that do it 100% alterisically, it does not justify the whole surrogacy industry and does not make buying babies ok.

The majority of surrogates do so through financial pressure. They are being taken advantage of. We have no idea how these faceless women deal with having their baby taken away from them. Even in the UK we have women acting as 'career' surrogates.

The majority of children will likley be affected in some way from being taken away from their birth mother as soon as they're born, and by being sometimes denied one or both biological parents. No-one should be willfully denied their biological parents. No one should be bought or sold. Even if the birth mother consents, the child does not.

I'm sure in some situations suragocy can work. But not everyone has a sister or close friend who cares enough about them to have a baby for them. I'm sorry if that means they can't have a baby, but it doesn't give them the right to buy one. They are humans not puppies.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 10:28

It's been said a couple of times on this thread that why shouldn't gay men have children too, as they might have just as strong desire for a family as a hero couple or a lesbian couple, as defence for the sale of babies.

So tell me, why does no one say anything about the poor gay men and how they are deprived of what they want too? Why don't we just do surrogacy on the NHS? I mean there must be thousands of women, who say it's fine to sell babies, just queuing up to offer themselves up as 'gestators' or whatever other deliberately dehumanising language you might wish to use, to distance themselves from the use of women and babies as commodities.

We should be paying for gay men to have children out of the taxpayer's pocket. Shouldn't we?

As for the question of 'who is the mother', I'd argue that even if you sign away your legal rights or you abdicate all responsibility for that child, if that child wouldn't be here without your physical involvement you are still their mother. You cannot erase this reality, and a child may have the question of where their genes came from and why their surrogate, despite feeling them kicking inside still had no emotional connection to them. Even if they are very loved by the people who bought them.

Even the business of how much you cost to buy will be there in the heat of an argument. Cos our deepest and darkest don't go away. They follow us round.

I have to say that we seem to be living increasingly in a world where denial of reality is more and more acceptable. Saying that black is white and getting people to repeat this is a sign of totalitarianism. Totalitarianism goes hand in hand with blindness to ethics.

Anyone saying this is 'none of our business' is complicit with it and sees some humans as having a lesser value to society than others.

And the minute you start to do that, and start down the road of saying that humans have a value, and don't have an issue in the buying and selling of humans in any capacity it's not far to go to saying, that if a human has no value or they are costing society, we'd be better just 'improving our balance sheet' or 'writing off our unusable stock'.

If you this is hyperbolic, you need to wake up to the direction in which wheels are turning.

Historically science fiction has always carried elements which have been remarkably astute in predicting the future. We are going through an era of huge amounts of dystopian fiction rather than a more positive sci-fi based on building a uptopia society which had been more common. It's not simply a matter of trend or taste. Future fiction is a reflection of the time we live in and what we are capable of, and its power is in just how much be believe in that as reality. It's not just the obvious handmaid's tale either.

A celebrity buying a baby and normalising it, and having the defence to protect against criticism by going 'don't be homophobic' (where have we seen this dynamic before?) most definitely should be something we should be talking about and saying "Er no, that really bloody unethical and wrong", without question or cavet. Hiding behind being gay, as some kind of symbol of progressiveness is bollocks. It's just a smokescreen for quite the opposite.

The erosion of human rights.

Don't minimise or ignore this shit. Scream out what it is.

Hoppinggreen · 02/07/2018 10:34

Excellent post red

LemonJello · 02/07/2018 10:45

Brilliant post red.

Re the erosion of human rights I’m posting again the list of human rights this child has been denied, from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Article 3 (best interests of the child) The best interests of the child must be a top priority in all decisions and actions that affect children.

Article 5 (parental guidance and a child’s evolving capacities) Governments must respect the rights and responsibilities of parents and carers to provide guidance and direction to their child as they grow up, so that they fully enjoy their rights. This must be done in a way that recognises the child’s increasing capacity to make their own choices.

Article 7 (birth registration, name, nationality, care)
Every child has the right to be registered at birth, to have a name and nationality, and, as far as possible, to know and be cared for by their parents.

Article 8 (protection and preservation of identity)
Every child has the right to an identity. Governments must respect and protect that right, and prevent the child’s name, nationality or family relationships from being changed unlawfully.

Article 9 (separation from parents) Children must not be separated from their parents against their will unless it is in their best interests (for example, if a parent is hurting or neglecting a child). Children whose parents have separated have the right to stay in contact with both parents, unless this could cause them harm.

Article 13 (freedom of expression) Every child must be free to express their thoughts and opinions and to access all kinds of information, as long as it is within the law.

Article 18 (parental responsibilities and state assistance)
Both parents share responsibility for bringing up their child and should always consider what is best for the child. Governments must support parents by creating support services for children and giving parents the help they need to raise their children.

Article 35 (abduction, sale
and trafficking)
Governments must protect children from being abducted, sold or moved illegally to a different place in or outside their country for the purpose of exploitation.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 10:49

The US has left the UN Human Rights Council.

MrsJayy · 02/07/2018 10:50

Redtoothbrush 👏 I have nothing else tosay Smile

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 10:54

The US is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

However that despite this, they have never ratified the treaty.

SomeDyke · 02/07/2018 11:01

What particularly annoys me is trying to camoflage this as a gay rights issue when it is actually a male rights issue. Lesbian mums have been finding sperm donors and self-inseminating for years but gay men and surrogacy is a totally different issue. But frankly stuffed with male entitlement that some gay male couples think they have a right to buy. I think I would only possibly be okay with surrogacy if altruistic (relative close friend) but even then potential ethical issues. We should not be normalising this for gay men or presenting it as just an ordinary couple wanting babies.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2018 11:06

Totalitarianism always comes under the guise of 'progressiveness'.