The mother of Tom Daley's child

[Pratchet]

Congratulations on a healthy baby! Hope the birth went safely and that you are recovering well.

I just hate surrogacy in case you can't tell

Shit, and here's me going through all that miserable multiple-miscarriage stuff to conceive my own child, when I could be outsourcing it and keeping a woman in the developing world out of poverty for a few months. How selfish of me!

The vast majority of children born to lesbian and gay couples in the past were not through anonymous donors as it was illegal for clinics to help lesbian and gay couples have a child. Sp studies of how children brought up in same sex relationships fare, really tell us little about the impact of commercial surrogacy i.e. buying a baby.

Particularly as the children are being created solely to satisfy the wants or needs of the men and women in this situation.

So are most children to be fair. Let's be honest. Conceiving a child naturally is not exactly some altruistic act. It's usually because the people in question want to start a family, or one of them does. Same sex people also want to start a family but cannot do so naturally. While I can understand disagreement about the ethics of surrogacy, it's wrong to just label gay couples as selfishly wanting to indulge their wants. They want to start families- they are no more selfish than a heterosexual couple wanting to do the same.

@placemats it's always in the best interest of the child for nobody to stand in the way of them having contact with their genetic parents unless the parents are seriously dangerous.
If the child wants to refuse contact that should be absolutely the child's prerogative.
What's this got to do with surrogacy?

@peakpants except that in the case of naturally conceiving children, no child has to undergo very meaningful trauma in order for the adults to get what they want.

@peakpants and, in context, what I was saying was that the children's rights should trump those of the adults who were intending to create them.
Much as I'm sure any normal natural parents would place their children's needs above their own.

Just adding my two cents. When my DD1 was born the hospital where she was born kept her away for 2 days (brought only for breastfeeding). She couldn’t sleep alone for 3 years. She seemed mildly traumatised. I certainly felt horrible. Completely different experience with DD2. Anecdotal evidence is not enough there could be plethora of other reasons but then again if share we might discover commonalities.

Personally I don't think arguing that some mothers are shit is a valid reason to allow suragocy. No child missing a mother thinks 'oh well maybe she would have been a bitch'. They long for the ideals of a mother, whether they would have had that in different circumstances is irrelevant.

Some parents are shit, that is a separate issue from buying babys and using women's body's like their breeding mares.

The fact is most women are exploited through surrogacy, most children will be effected by the loss of a biological parent, and in most circumstances its not in the best interest of the baby to be taken away from its birth mother in its first months of life.

The vast majority of children born to lesbian and gay couples in the past were not through anonymous donors as it was illegal for clinics to help lesbian and gay couples have a child. Sp studies of how children brought up in same sex relationships fare, really tell us little about the impact of commercial surrogacy i.e. buying a baby.

The study I posted above included children born as a result of donor insemination and surrogacy. They were aged 3-11 years. It has been legal for at least 10 years to treat same sex couples in clinics in the UK and before that, one of them could be treated as a single person and then the other could have applied to adopt the child. It has also been legal in other EU countries for longer to give IVF to same sex couples. It's not a brand new phenomenon.

except that in the case of naturally conceiving children, no child has to undergo very meaningful trauma in order for the adults to get what they want.

The study I have cited above which includes a reasonably sized sample suggests that they do not necessarily go through meaningful trauma in all cases. I am sure some do, but I do not think surrogacy by itself necessarily brings about trauma. Why is it wrong for a lesbian couple to use an anonymous donor but for a heterosexual couple to do the same when having IVF? Why do people applaud a woman agreeing to carry a baby for a close friend, but when two gay men want to use a surrogate, it is child abuse because the child will be deprived of its natural mother?

PeakPants At 3-11 you will not hear the truth about what kids think. And we already know with donor insemination that some kids do want contact with their biological dad, which is why the law was changed. Why would that be any different when your mother has actually grown you inside her womb for 9 months?

Can we cut the crap sanitised language of 'commercial surrogacy' and just say 'bought a baby'?

Cos when you say it like that and add in the point about no mention of the mother existing (even if she wanted anonymity - remembering to ask why might she be keen to conceal that she sells her baby), it really does sound rather different.

The use of sanitised language is usually a tell for trying to justify something that's really not terribly nice or ethical.

@peakpants yet listening to the people who were deprived of one or both biological parents, not one has spoken about it positively.

And lesbians can not legally use an anonymous donor from a clinic in the UK, All children born of sperm donation have a right to know their biological dad when they turn 18.

We are often ignored, but notice how we've spoken unanimously.

Agree redtoothbrush If you ask people if they think people should be able to buy a baby, most people would be horrified at the idea.

At 3-11 you will not hear the truth about what kids think. And we already know with donor insemination that some kids do want contact with their biological dad, which is why the law was changed. Why would that be any different when your mother has actually grown you inside her womb for 9 months?

I think child psychologists can get a fairly good view of whether a child has suffered trauma and is mentally well adjusted. Wanting contact with donors or surrogates also doesn't necessarily indicate trauma- often it is just curiosity.

Also, many gay couples stay in contact with their surrogate. There is no suggestion that Tom Daley and husband will not do so either.

Anyway. Lots of interesting views on here. I am just cautious about anything that suggests that the only ideal family is the heterosexual 2-parent one. I am for a more diverse definition of what family is, transcending biology and looking more at care and commitment as a marker.

@wherismymind

Judging by the daily flood of MIL and family NC posts on here, it's more than just "some" mothers with issues.

Totally different where the mother is involved in the life of their child.

yet listening to the people who were deprived of one or both biological parents, not one has spoken about it positively

On this thread, no, but I know people IRL who do not feel the same as people on this thread. Everyone's experiences are different.

Judging by the daily flood of MIL and family NC posts on here, it's more than just "some" mothers with issues.

Sorry do you not see all the shit father posts?

You dont even hide your utter contempt for women do you?

@cruncymints YY to children 3-11 not giving a clear impression of the truth of their thoughts to adults.

I had lesbian parents from the age of 10, and even as an adult with first hand experience who is sure of my opinion, I can't relay anything even remotely negative without being shouted down and called homophobic or a bigot (as was shown earlier in the thread, when I hadn't even said anything negative, or indeed at all).
We can never have a balanced discussion about this until the children affected are older, and until we can actually listen to those who have experience of this without calling them names.

However, the adults who have suffered other forms of biological separation can offer insight. And, unless there's to be a huge number of damaged children in the upcoming years, they need to be heard.

Interesting --totally unsurprising- that TRA support baby purchase.

Ages 3 to 11 I completely accepted my reality and knew no different. Aged 17 I had a breakdown.