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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A very compelling reason not to report rape

184 replies

GoldenWonderwall · 30/06/2018 09:22

www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/vulnerable-women-routinely-jailed-false-rape?bfsource=bbf_enuk&utm_term=.dqqYVQ8bn4#.xkj2yRPZQA

I feel sick. I can’t believe that the police and cps use the difficulties in securing rape convictions against women to convict them. Taking a mother away from her baby, causing a mentally ill woman to take her own life. I’m sure there is some sensational reporting here but I’m unsurprised.

What can we do? Is there anything to be done or is it just another big brick in the wall of stfu about rape and sexual assault ladies?

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ReliefOfChaos · 03/07/2018 18:56

AFAIK the mahogany bellend hasn't been accused of rape. He seems to have wandering hands in most of the allegations.

NC4Now · 03/07/2018 19:10

But what about when there is evidence a woman has lied? Surely she should be prosecuted?
I’m not talking one word against the other cases. I mean the rare cases when she says it happened at this date at this time and he can prove he was somewhere completely different (eg CCTV).

ReliefOfChaos · 03/07/2018 19:31

There are compelling reasons not to prosecute false (even malicious) rape reports, and largely we don't. Less than 1 in 4 of the cases referred to the CPS (so where the police think there's enough evidence to prosecute) are brought to trail. The total number of cases referred is about 8% of all rape complaints to the police, total prosecutions 2%. If memory serves about 15% of complaints are referred for prosecution for rape, and the CPS goes ahead with about two thirds.

(All this from the compilations of police commissioners reports BTW, which came out a couple of years ago. Damned if I can find a link though).

All other complaints, where there is not enough evidence, just disappear or are 'no-crimed'.

I really don't think anyone takes the decision to prosecute a vulnerable woman for perjury lightly,

TulipsinParis · 03/07/2018 23:40

Why are you so convinced the accusation was false?

The Buzzfeed article quoted Professor Lisa Avalos, a law professor who has been writing about this issue for a few years. She has had access to the legal documents in a wide range of these types of cases and by studying the documents has reached the conclusion that the CPS has often charged actual rape victims with false reporting after failing to properly investigate their cases. Her articles say that they are charging actual rape complainants with false reporting without any actual evidence that the women have lied.

Links to her work below. She includes quotes from Eleanor’s interview with the police, which shed a lot of light on why Prof. Avalos reaches the conclusions that she does.

The Chilling Effect: The Politics of Charging Rape Complainants with False Reporting:
brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/blr/vol83/iss3/1/
(discusses Eleanor de Freitas case)

Policing Rape Complainants: When Reporting Rape Becomes a Crime:
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2973404
(discusses Eleanor de Freitas and Rhiannon Brooker cases and others)

Prosecuting Rape Victims While Rapists Run Free: The Consequences of Police Failure to Investigate Sex Crimes in Britain and the United States:
repository.law.umich.edu/mjgl/vol23/iss1/1/
(discusses Gail Sherwood, Layla Ibrahim, and other cases)

Borisbike747 · 04/07/2018 00:18

AE is no victim. He had the opportunity to walk away anonymously when the police decided not to charge him with rape. It was after that that he decided to bring a private prosecution against Eleanor, and he outed himself by contacting the press (the Mail on Sunday) and asking them to do a story on him as the man Eleanor accused. It’s not like Eleanor or anyone else outed him. And instead of walking away, he brought a prosecution against her, then after she killed herself he bought the domain name “eleanordefreitas.com” and he brought a libel lawsuit against Eleanor’s father. He has done more to harm his own reputation than anyone else ever did. If I had the audacity to bring a prosecution against someone and she then killed herself, I would be devastated by that and would extend my condolences to the family. I would probably also feel guilty for the rest of my life.

thebewilderness · 04/07/2018 00:25

Usually when the accused rapist can prove they were elsewhere it is a case of stranger rape and mistaken identity on the part of the victim looking at pictures, days or weeks after the crime.

ReliefOfChaos · 04/07/2018 07:57

Where on Earth could you possibly get that information from bewilderness?

GoldenWonderwall · 04/07/2018 08:13

sawdust I’m shocked that the drs couldn’t say vaginal injuries and bleeding immediately after penetration were caused, on the balance of probabilities, by penetration.

Tulips thank you for those links. I shall read them and most probably weep.

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FuckLush · 04/07/2018 17:18

“I just wanted you to know I am on suicide watch. Economou fucked me and chucked me….”

12:25 on 25.12.12 “I’m now safe with my family. The ambulance people treated me for shock and luckily I had a supply of sleeping pills. Without going into specifics, Ec and I had a fling, encouraged by Ben. I woke up at his yesterday morning and he was full of adoration. Then once I’ve finished work and I am driving to my family, he calls me up and says I am uncool manipulative bitch and never contact him again”

16:38 25/12/12 “I just never want to see him again. I can only assume he was on drugs or something when he spoke to me. It is especially hard because I told him my depression story, then he told me that I was being manipulative and attention seeking. He has also de-friended me on Facebook. I don’t understand what I have done wrong???”

These are messages EDF sent to friends after she was allegedly raped.

There was CCTV directly contradicting the account she gave the police.

This was not he said/she said. There was hard electronic evidence to prove she lied to the police. The evidence was reviewed by two separate DPP'S and found to be sufficient to result in a realistic prospect of conviction.

However, the evidence in this case was strong and having considered it in light of all of our knowledge and guidance on prosecuting sexual offences and allegedly false rape claims, it is clear there was sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction for perverting the course of justice. This was evidence including text messages and CCTV footage that directly contradicted the account Ms de Freitas gave to the police. This was not assumption based on her behaviour or actions which fall into myths and stereotypes about how alleged rape victims should behave. It was on this basis that we concluded that there was a realistic prospect of proving that the rape allegation made by Ms de Freitas was false

There is an ongoing IPCC investigation into the police officers for not doing their job properly and yet the majority on this board still believe that this guy is guilty.

Absolute madness.

For those who are erring on the side of caution and who believe she shouldn't have been prosecuted because she was mentally I'll, the psychiatrist employed by her own solicitors found her fit to stand trial.

I am satisfied that prosecutors had taken the necessary steps in assuring themselves that Ms de Freitas’ mental health had been properly considered. This was in the form of a very detailed report by a consultant forensic psychiatrist instructed by Ms de Freitas’ legal team, who also took into account the views of Ms de Freitas’ consultant psychiatrist. That medical assessment was clear. The doctor instructed by Ms de Freitas’ legal representative recommended that she was aware of the implications of making a false allegation, as she was alleged to have done, and was fit to stand trial. We do not take on these kinds of prosecutions lightly, but the medical evidence provided to us could not justify dropping such a serious case. No further representations were made to us as to Ms de Freitas’ health, which would of course have been carefully considered.

Not that any of this matters of course. Who needs solicitors, evidence and psych reports when you've got Buzzfeed? Hmm

4th rule of feminism again eh?

By the way the reporting and subsequent deletion of my previous posts is pretty ironic given the constant wailing on here of "feminists are being silenced"

19th rule of feminism. Freedom of speech is only important if it's the right speech. Fucking hypocrites.

FuckLush · 04/07/2018 17:30

Unfortunately, that mahogany bellend in the White House is proof that allegations (false or true) do not harm men’s reputations

It doesn't harm Rich men's, No.

Actually this is pretty pointless. I'm wasting everyone's time here. This board is far more interested in politics than any semblance of justice. I'm out.

GoldenWonderwall · 04/07/2018 17:37

Lol who are you then? I presume someone died and made you king of the thread.

I’ve started reading scholarly articles about these cases mentioned upthread and it’s quite frankly horrifying how the cps and police ignore their own best practice to try these cases.

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waterlego6064 · 04/07/2018 17:56

It doesn't harm Rich men's

Rich men like Alexander Economou.

sawdustformypony · 04/07/2018 18:01

GoldenWonderwall - did you read the 2nd link ? I read the part about Rhiannon Brooker pages 492-494. It put it politely - she doesn't know what she's talking about when it comes to police/cps/court procedure in England - shocking thing is she appears to be making a living from it. wow.

GoldenWonderwall · 04/07/2018 19:00

I’m reading the links tulips provided but I’m not all the way though the first one yet. It’s very informative and the evidence quoted in the case of Eleanor says the man in question made social media posts about drugging women, getting them too drunk to get home and touching women’s breasts without consent so you know, goose and gander to the person above who’s posting a dead woman’s text messages.

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TulipsinParis · 05/07/2018 04:58

FuckLush, you obviously have not read the articles at the links I posted as the professor debunks each of the arguments you raise. E.g. it is common for rape victims to blame themselves after being raped, particularly when an acquaintance rapes them. The articles address all of the other issues too, so you might begin with them.

TulipsinParis · 05/07/2018 05:03

GoldenWonderwall, I was pretty shocked and horrified by those social media posts by AE too. It really makes you wonder. Glad you are finding the links helpful!

thebewilderness · 05/07/2018 07:09

@ReliefOfChaos Wed 04-Jul-18 07:57:00Where on Earth could you possibly get that information from bewilderness?

My employment. But you need not take my word for it. There are compilations of statistics and records of investigative procedures that bear out what I said.

ReliefOfChaos · 05/07/2018 07:41

I've read quite a few compilations of statistics, and I've never come across anything that would back that up.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 05/07/2018 08:08

tulips

And the relationship board has loads of posts asking 'was this rape?' Sometimes the posters is asking about something that happened days or weeks ago

Borisbike747 · 05/07/2018 16:01

Tulips, thank you for posting the links - fascinating reading!

Goldenwonderwall, I agree - shocking how police/CPS don't even follow their own guidance. And it sounds like these prosecutions are politically motivated at times, to placate the men's lobby and satisfy them that the CPS is willing to prosecute allegedly false allegations of rape and not just rape. Scary since there is a lot more rape than there is false allegations of rape.

sawdustformypony, I've read that article and I thought that section on Rhiannon Brooker that you mentioned was especially good and convincing. I don't see any merit to your criticism because the author is mostly drawing directly from police documents there, and grounding what she concludes on those documents. According to the documents the author quotes from, Rhiannon was actually charged because the police were scared that the man she accused would make trouble for them since they locked him up for a bit without bothering to collect enough evidence to convict him. I've noticed in other articles that Avon & Somerset Constabulary has one of the worst records when it comes to prosecuting rape so it shouldn't surprise us that this was one of their botched cases.

So sorry for what has happened to Rhiannon, Eleanor, and these other women. And that American girl, Danielle Hicks-Best, she was only 11 years old when charged with a false report! That is well below the statutory age of consent so they definitely had no business charging her! It took a journalist to uncover the wrong done to her.

sawdustformypony · 05/07/2018 16:49

Borisbike747 I think at first glance it does appear a convincing account especially if one doesn't have a background as to the sequence of events that occurs between the Police, the CPS and the Courts. But then I started thinking something isn't right here - the more I thought about it the more a 'crock of shite' came into focus. I'll put my criticism in a later post (I fear it might be lengthy) and explain the above sequence and how the Professor's narrative and hypothesis as to why Brooker was charged is...err...open to doubt.

But I'll give you one minor spoiler - the Professor quotes DI Janice Pearson as saying in an interview that the suspect had been on Court bail - but the Courts can't impose bail if there's been no charge - so which is it, does DI Pearson get it wrong or the Prof ?

sawdustformypony · 05/07/2018 17:32

Borisbike747

Maybe lets get started with a bit of background with a link to bail from the CPS website, to whet your appetite - and there's also a link there on Custody Time Limits (CTL). You know what they say - the devil / crock is in the detail.

sawdustformypony · 06/07/2018 09:24

Borisbike747 and others that are interested in this matter - hopefully you have had a chance to look at those pages from the CPS.

Clearily in the life of a prosecution there is a pre-charge stage and a post-charge stage. Pre-charge stage the Police can only hold suspects for a limited amount of time before charging them - in the vast majority of cases this is 24 hours. Sometimes - and these really are the exceptions a senior police officer can authorise the extension of detention - but there must be good reasons for it. If the Police want further time then they need to apply to a Magistrates' Court for a warrant - very rare they need to do this. But, goodness gracious, this is the Land of Magna Carta after all, so even then the time is limited to 96 hours - the Police take these time limits very seriously and there is an officer called a custody officer - an sergeant whose role it is to manage the custody suite and ensure these time limits are strictly observed.

The prof has Brooker's ex-partner in prison for 30 days pre-charge !

Fairies at the bottom of the garden ? - maybe.
Arrested person in E&W held without being charged in prison (!!) for 30 days ?- No.

So you may say - charge or no charge ? so what, sawdust you silly sausage ? - well its commonplace for post-charge person to be held in prison. The prison reform trust has published numbers in relation to these remand prisoners - here is a link to the report . As you will see 30 days is not at all unusual for remand prisoners, with the average time being more than double that.....so if the Police in the Prof's narrative are in a tizzy then we must be imagining somebody thats not been charged - as she says so herself....

Anyway back later, my work beckons for the moment, more to follow obvs - any questions so far ? (try to keep it relevant if possible)

sawdustformypony · 06/07/2018 13:45

Borisbike747

So reverting to the Professor's "especially good and convincing" narrative again, she writes

Their reasoning was that because Brooker’s ex-partner had spent about a month in jail while the rape allegations were investigated. page 494

and

They needed a way to explain to the public why the ex-partner had been held in prison for 30 days and then released without ever being charged same page

Not so much the why - answer the how first - How do the Police get somebody held in prison for 30 days without ever being charged.
Maybe the Professor has strange ideas about quaint British ways - maybe she imagines something like Bunty the big cheese from Avon & Somerset ringing up Charles, the Governor at the local nick on the dog and bone to ask a favour.

Maybe along these lines ?

Hello Charles, how are you?
Bunty, how are you, Sheila told me you might be ringing - lovely to see at the cricket last Sunday
Yes very enjoyable – I bowled a maiden over!
Err, is that wise these days?
Anyway, I’m in a bit of a fix, the reason I’m ringing is we got this chap, apparently not enough evidence to charge him at the moment – namby-bamby CPS for you - its only a matter of time I feel, but damn and blast, the custody officer has thrown a spanner in the works and tells me that time is up and we have to release him on police bail with conditions while we carry out further investigations – it’s the law apparently. Look I’m not awfully keen on that idea – I wondered if you might put him up for a bit – say a couple of weeks?
Couple of weeks? – your chap bit short on the evidence front doing a sort of bunk up with my remanded and convicted chaps ?
Yes!

mmm…might we get a court order remanding him in prison or ….
Like I said rotten luck, he’s not been charged – so he’s not been before the beaks – go on be a chum !
Well yes, why not – what could possibly go wrong. You’re not worried about time limits under PACE then ?
Nah…as if.
Well we’re all having tea and ice-cream on the lawn this afternoon – bring him around I can introduce him to some of the chaps but I can’t promise there’ll be enough sandwiches to go around.
Splendid – you still up for a glass of Port at the George and Patriarchy next Wednesday
Rather!

Could this ever happen ? No. Yes, the Police and Prison Service are batting on the same side but they are separate organisations - the Police cant get people remanded in custody in prisons by asking nicely - there are rules (this ain't Nam - courtesy The Big Lebowski). Its the Courts that make these remand orders on people that have been charged with serious offences.

Hard to believe of a Professor of Law ? - but damn, she clearly has no idea what she is talking about ...and if none of that could ever happen - the rest of her explanations as to the Police motives melt away PDQ.

GoldenWonderwall · 06/07/2018 15:09

I see the thread is being taken over by walls of text about men. Horses for courses I suppose.

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