WPUK Brighton Meeting: Turning the Tide

[PlonitbatPlonit]

Tickets now available to hear Kathleen Stock, Helen Saxby, Gill Smith and Ruth Serwotka in Brighton on 16 July

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-turning-the-tide-tickets-47592125328

Helen Saxby's blog notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/

Article by Gill Smith www.transgendertrend.com/lesbian-detransitioner-must-question-primary-solution/

Kathleen Stock's blog medium.com/@kathleenstock

Article by Ruth Serwotka morningstaronline.co.uk/article/why-do-we-need-new-womens-movement

Oh daim.

The cognitive dissonance must be a real ladyballache to keep up.

Internalised misogyny is an absolute fucker to shift. I think it's getting harder than ever.

Daim has erased/dismissed her own wife's opinion.

Someone's nasty and mean-spirited, and it isn't WPUK.

Daimbars, can I just ask how it is that you think men can be lesbians, but don't think a masculine looking woman can be one?

In fact, you have acknowledged that lesbians are female homosexuals, yet you accept men as lesbians.

So even though you thought the person pictured was a man, why would you say they can't be a lesbian?

Hello
Can I come on during your discussion and ask/state a few things... I've been following a lot of the debate on here.

I live in Brighton
I'm a lesbian with kids. Out for many years.
I've never questioned my gender even though physically I present as what straight people say as slightly 'butch' i.e short hair and no skirts! I don't think other lesbians would necessarily say that I was.
About 12 years ago when I became a parent I felt a terrible need to 'straighten my look up for the sake of my kids. I noticed this was a general lesbian trend. I now see this as misogyny at work. I heard other lesbians be disparaging of 'butches'. I bought some lipstick!
The current gender queer stuff makes it much easier to be who you want. I'm envious that wasn't around when I was a student (I missed the 80s by a few years )
But...I am really worried about giving our kids drugs and surgery. Lots of the queer kids I meet are really unhappy young people. We've all been there.

I know some trans people... but I wonder why gender is becoming more polarised not less. I can't ask them.

Lesbianism is getting more marginalised. It has no voice. I see it daily. If it's happening in Brighton it must be worse elsewhere.
Lesbian friends are too scared to openly critise this, or even stand up and be counted. We are all keeping our heads down. We've got equality haven't we so can't we shut up !?!. I went to the Marley recently and saw all signs and stickers. Friends have been posting pro-trans stuff.
I am a sidelines activist. I do some bits ...
I was too scared to go to this event as I thought there would be trouble... and I was worried what pro-trans friends would say.

I throw that in because you asked where all of the 30-40 year old were.... answer confused as fuck....and watching at home....

Not good! I should have gone.

Daim, I just don't get it. I just don't get that you, as a female-anatomied person, seem to have not one shred of empathy for females in various situations that may

• put them at risk
• make them feel uncomfortable
• disables them from having the language to talk about why they feel at risk or uncomfortable.

I'm afraid I'm going to take it back to changing spaces again, and schools specifically.

And my post isn't anti-trans, I'm not a witch, I'm under 50 (not that that's relevant) This specific post is about the dignity and respect for female teens.

As we've seen over and over again from the videos posted from WPUK and other groups such as Venice's - these meetings centre the needs of women and girls (adult females and child females for clarity's sake here, using your definitinons of gender vs anatomy).

Even if you were the most bestest proudest ever female ally for trans rights (and ironically many posters here started off as strong allies until the new behaviours started rolling in) - if you possess a female anatomy that means you grew up as female.

Do you remember puberty? Were you just lucky that you had no shyness or consciousness about your developing body when you changed for PE at school?

(Or were you in an exclusive school with individual changing cubicles. Because most of us experience communal changing at school)

If so, were you not aware of any friends at all who felt more uncomfortable, even in front of other females? At PE changing times, particularly when they were on their period? Just generally self-conscious as many teens are?

If, imagine, you have a young daughter right now and, by the time she's 12-14, the trans movement has been successful in stripping all sex-defined segregation of spaces away - cos hey, it's about gender not anatomy.

So bepenised 'transgirls' are now changing in the same space as your hypothetical daughter.

But it turns out that your daughter is one of those female teens who does find it hard to share changing spaces. (Yeah, I know, you'd raise her 'better' to be accepting of female peni, but, guess what, they're 'through us, not from us' [Gibran]).

What would you say to her? How would you navigate this without a discussion that effectively strips her from being able to define her boundaries?

Feel uncomfortable around penises in your changing room? "Don't be, it's phobic, they're female penises. You can't differentiate them from females with 'female anatomy'. "

Feel uncomfortable when someone tells you to accept a biological untruth that you can visibly see isn't so? "Don't be, it's phobic. Those female penises are just as valid as female anatomy"

Feel uncomfortable when someone tells you to ignore your gut instinct that something doesn't feel quite right? "Don't be, its phobic. Accept non-female anatomy into your intimate spaces, otherwise you're a witch (and probably old and won't be able to dye your hair great colours)"

How do you help her navigate her boundaries as a female and a potential feminist, as you are, in the world?

Icedgemsandjelly No one should have to walk on eggshells around their friends

Icedgems I wish you had!

icegemsandjelly entirely up to you but I think you might want to copy and paste that in to a new thread entirely (in the feminism chat section) as it's a sort of thread on it's own and might get lost.

I think I've said all there is to say. It was a nasty, mean-spirited event. I don't think I'll go to the next one

Please fucking don't @daimbars

I honestly did think you had meant you were going with an open mind but you misrepresented what happened and have now allowed for your MADE UP BOLLOCKS version to be repeated all over Twitter. Have you had the decency to tweet @Kathleen Stock (@Docstockk) and apologise for misrepresenting her so badly? I've yet, to see it on this thread either.

Can you please in your wokeness explain how you know that a woman is non binary because she has colourful hair or why you think butch lesbians are really men?

Thanks for posting Icedgemsandjelly - your post is really informative and shed more light on this issue for me. It's really good to have your thoughts and input.

You are all right. The debate is being shut down.
There are sinister forces at work.
We shouldn't be turning on one another.
Trans people are being let down just as much as women, just as much as lesbians. It's hurting young people .... and the winners are?!? No prizes for guessing.
I know you all know this.
I'm afraid it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Mogleflop would like to apologise again for managing to be a sanctimonious arse earlier. God knows the TRAs don't give us any benefit of the doubt.

Also to register her TOTAL SURPRISE that daimbars is posting contradictory bollocks and then storming off in a huff. Once again, shocking!

@Icedgemsandjelly - yes, please do start a new thread, not too many people will be reading to the end of this one. We'll all join you there

Another time. But I am resolved to get more involved now

The current gender queer stuff makes it much easier to be who you want

I don't think it does. Young girls are being pressured in to breast binding and hormones, especially lesbians. There was a detransitioned lesbian woman at wpuk and it was awful listening to talk about what she had been through. She is worried there will be a generation of butch girls in her situation in ten years times, but I suspect there won't because they will have nothing to detransition to. No lesbian culture.

Daimbars - you are an absolute joke....hypocritical and extremely nasty and mean spirited. You must have some serious issues to dislike women ao much but keep coming on here to point score and failing badly.

Hi Icedgemsandjelly - welcome to this lovely area of Mumsnet (not sure if you've posted elsewhere, but it's a the whole website is a fantastic, varied, interesting space whether you want to discuss wedding madness, M & S crapness, relationship support or what the weather might be doing next week.

I love the varied input of so many people here. I'm not well-versed in the FWR feminist analysis, but I'm going to have a go at saying hello and responding!

We crossed posts - gender is becoming more polarised not less
In my humble opinion, the polarisation is a backlash against feminism and the breaking of 'gender' that happened in the 80s and early 90s, and it certainly supports the transrights agenda, because, without firm and polarised gender stereotypes, you can't 'identify' into a certain category.

You just end up as 'non-binary' which a lot of us technically are by definition, which pisses off the special new 'non-binarists' as they want a special unicorn place that they think no one else has ever invented.

Lesbianism is getting more marginalised. It has no voice. I see it daily. If it's happening in Brighton it must be worse elsewhere. Many people have seen this change, hence why many of us are waking up and sharing our voices in whatever way we can (not all of us can go to meet-ups, for lots of reasons - you can do other things! Even just having conversations in 'real life')

I'm sorry you felt the need to 'straighten up your look' when you had kids. This is the sort of thing that most gender critical feminists are fighting hard against. There should be no need to do so.

The gender-boxerists are shoving us back into the 'this is a woman' 'this is a man' box so hard right now - glad you were watching at home. All of us are going at different paces, but we're all making small moves - which is why the trans activist movement is so grumpy right now!

Icedgemsandjelly thank you for posting your experience. You should know, if you don't already, that there are lots of lurkers here who read everything and support you.

I'm just waking up to this!
(Also emerging from a nappy haze too.... have been on MN for years but mostly posting about sleepless nights and potty training etc)
Will be back soon!

So Daimbars gets called out on their lies and misogyny and then refuses to comment further. Not seen that before ever.

You could just apologise for lying and delete your woman hating tweets, but I guess those trans cookies taste too sweet.

Icedgemsandjelly things were getting weird for lesbians in Brighton about 15 years ago when I left, the trans thing hadn't really hit then, but it was definitely more about male homosexuals than female. The trans thing has just made it worse and I'm really sad that the one city in the UK where lesbians should feel safe as houses has become so much less welcoming.

Icedgemsandjelly - I know how you feel - I thought about going to one of the early ones, but it was a long way and a city I didn't know and I was worried about finding the venue and protesters, so I didn't.

I so wish I had given it a go!! It is unlikely that there will be one anywhere nearer to me.

Despite this thread being hugely entertaining, personally I'm sick to death of hearing what Daim thinks about anything, and I wish everyone would just ignore her from now on!

Yes i agree . Waste of energy.