Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

There must be another way. I still think some kind of time lapse between getting a GRC and having the full rights of being a woman (single sex spaces, shortlists) is a practical solution.

No. How does another month or year make a difference to the core argument, which is that women need safety, privacy and dignity in spaces where men are excluded?

It makes no difference if the ink is wet or it’s been five years.

The answer is NO.

With my children present, no way would I risk it. I would just hold my tongue and leave, acquiesce to being pushed out of a space I previously thought I was safe in.

I would too. I actually wouldn’t even challenge if on my own at the moment. I’m on crutches just now and acutely aware of my own physical vulnerability. With a child or two in tow, I’d just quietly leave.

And of course where does that leave women who are aware such a scenario would present? Women of faith for example? They will simply avoid that area altogether.

So that’s all the Muslim ladies and orthodox Jewish ladies at the pool, unable to use the facilities at all. how is that OK?

Thing is, Daim, what you never acknowledge is that the more women know about transactivism the less confident we are in its good faith. Like probably nearly everyone here, my initial response was entirely supportive. I'm delighted if people want to be GNC. I saw trans as similar to sexual orientation

It's the words and deeds of transactivists that changed my mind

You say people are getting scared by the things they read on FWR, who think that self ID means men will just be able to walk into female spaces unchallenged and assault women.

But I'm very well informed and i do know a number of transwomen irl. One of them I would definitely prefer not to share women only spaces with. And the more aggressive, authoritarian and misogynistic the transactivist voices become, the less I am inclined to give them an inch. There's no trust left.

Telling women they're wrong to care about our safety or expecting us to justify our need for single sex spaces is the tactic of an abuser

Daim self-ID does mean that though.

Not for those who are actually transitioning, obviously. I can well see the benefit of being able to transition via statutory declaration rather than medical diagnosis (although I'm not persuaded that replacing access to physical and mental healthcare with an online form is sensible).

But if it becomes the norm for women's spaces to contain people who are obviously male, what is to stop a man who is not transitioning from entering?

Put it this way: if a trans woman is being pestered and retreats to the loo, and the man follows her in leering "I'm a woman just like you luv" where is her recourse to stop him? How is she to discern between an enthusiastic person in the very early stages of transition who has overstepped the boundary of knowing when they are not wanted, and a creepy chaser? And don't pretend creepy chasers don't exist because we all know they do.

Now take the word "trans" out of the phrase "trans woman" and that is why women are worried.

There must be another way. I still think some kind of time lapse between getting a GRC and having the full rights of being a woman (single sex spaces, shortlists) is a practical solution.

Seriously? Women who require sex segregation are not going to suddenly not require it because a certain amount of time has elapsed since the person first demanded it.

What would you say, daim if a group of Muslim women who had been attending a ladies only swim session wanted to discuss this with you? To sit down over tea and tell you that they CANNOT change in spaces with males.

How would you speak to them and tell them that they are no longer able to use the swim session at all? how would you phrase that to them please? what words would you use? How does that conversation go in your mind?

But I think that is the situation at Hampstead Ladies Pond, which if I'm not mistaken is a popular place to swim for Jewish and Muslim women precisely because it is women only and secluded. I wonder if the change in rules has led to a change in attendance?

Man in my changing room. I say excuse me this is the ladies.
*He says I am a transwoman.

Then what do I say?*

Datun

It would entirely depend on the circumstances but I would probably say 'I don't think so mate, the men's is that way'

Nobody is going to cry transphobe. No law on self ID is suddenly going to make random men think it's okay to go into the ladies changing room and not be challenged. The world won't suddenly lose all its common sense!

Is the man behaving strangely? Deliberately exposing himself? If so then call the police.

Are there alternative unisex options for this person to change?

Is this a person of ambiguous gender who is quietly changing and causing you no problems? Are there no gender neutral changing facilities available? No private changing room?

I don't know about you but i never look at other women in changing rooms, I certainly wouldn't get close enough to ascertain whether someone was trans or not. Especially if they were just peacefully changing and causing me no bother.

No law on self ID is suddenly going to make random men think it's okay to go into the ladies changing room and not be challenged.

Then why has voyeuristic crime increased threefold in a US chain store since it made it’s changing rooms unisex?

No law on self ID is suddenly going to make random men think it's okay to go into the ladies changing room and not be challenged.

It's lovely that you don't know any abusive, controlling men.
Other women are more well informed, and you should listen to them.

There are men who will absolutely make full use of any opportunity to show everyone else who is boss. Just for the kicks.

I can see why the concern is there which is why I think there should be a period of time between a person transitioning and using female facilities.

Would be interested to hear from any trans posters on this? Would you be happy to wait a couple of years after starting hormone treatment to use open female changing rooms? (Assuming private cubicles are not available).

This seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

The third space is the better idea.

daimbars

Good Lord. You said

These people think they will be unable to challenge a man in a female space for fear of being transphobic. It is these people I believe the goady Twitter thread is addressing.

And then had to write SIX fricking paragraphs about the whys and the wherefores, the conditions under which it is, or isn't, acceptable, the possibilities of alternatives, and whether they had been explored or not and how.

And yet, you think that women shouldn't have a problem with any of this!!

I asked you what do I say to someone who tells me they're a woman, and you have give me six paragraphs to deal with it. Which may, or may not even resolve the situation.

No.

Is the man behaving strangely? Deliberately exposing himself? If so then call the police.

Now here’s the thing about this option.

1. It relies on nabbing a perp after the fact, rather than preventing a crime, so poor safeguarding. safeguarding is supposed to prevent crime.

1. Why can’t a transwoman change in the mens? We asked this on another thread the other day. The answer was ‘I’d feel unsafe.’ To which mine and other posters replied something along the lines of ‘well then call the police.’ Of course this simply was not to be entertained as an option.

So women have to call the police if a man is acting suspiciously. They have to watch and assess if a man is acting suspiciously. All the onus is on the women. Instead of being protected by the good safeguarding practice of simply men not being allowed in they have to assess each individual in turn.
Then they have to call the police who of course will just literally be outside waiting to help.

Do you see how this is a direct pushing of women’s boundaries. It’s the same as the cotton ceiling - we are no longer allowed to simply be safe, we must defend ourselves against each individual

This isn’t acceptable

Why does time make a difference?

This seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

How is it? When a man comes to me and says Right I'm coming in now, because I have waited five years for this, what difference does that make to me?

Is the man behaving strangely? Deliberately exposing himself? If so then call the police.

What do you mean by deliberately? How the hell would I know?

A Man who may be a transwoman, a pervert, or an autogynephile is trying on a bikini and looking at themself in the communal mirror.

Is that deliberate to you? Can I say anything?

Or do I just have to put up with it because my boundaries have been eroded?

Why can’t a transwoman change in the mens? We asked this on another thread the other day. The answer was ‘I’d feel unsafe.’ To which mine and other posters replied something along the lines of ‘well then call the police.’ Of course this simply was not to be entertained as an option.

Yes, I remember that one. It was made clear that calling the police was utterly pointless because they might take half an hour to turn up. Which makes it an equally unreasonable option for women.

Daim, what about someone genderfluid like Travis Alabanza / Eddie Izzard / Alok whatsit? You've heard about the fusses they kick up when challenged, & seen how quickly businesses cave? Do you think they should be able to use women's facilities as & when they feel like it?

Travis Alabanza is open about their close friendship with Alok, who claims that little girls are kinky and deviant and no where near as innocent as adults think.

He can say all this on social media. And, as yet, he is also going to be accepted, as a woman, into a female only space, containing women and little girls.

No.

Is this a person of ambiguous gender who is quietly changing and causing you no problems?

They're unlikely to be of ambiguous sex, which is what you mean. Why would I care what their "gender" is?

No law on self ID is suddenly going to make random men think it's okay to go into the ladies changing room and not be challenged

I can tell you for definite that I was only allowed to use female toilets and other spaces on my own by my abusive controlling jealous partner because they were female and he couldn't come in. If he thought there might be male people there he would not have allowed it or have followed me in.

No it isn't. Most women don't want males in female spaces. The end.

Indeed. And there's no way around it other than dissembling and dancing around the fact that you don't think women should be allowed boundaries and that consent doesn't matter.

As endless posts and pages of this thread attest.

Why is "no" not good enough for you Daim? The onus shoudl be on those who want to change the status quo to demonstrate that it is OK to do so, not on those who are going to lose existing protections to argue why they don't want to be disadvantaged

I'm sorry you had to go through that Ereshkigal I trust you got away from him in the end?

And look, I don't want to see anyone's boundaries eroded. This thread was supposed to be about Diva being a trans inclusive lesbian magazine, not re-hashing the changing room and toilet argument for the millionth time.

The only way I can see forward for GC feminists who cannot tolerate anyone born male in a female space is repealing the GRA and I just can't see that happening.

The only way I can see forward for GC feminists who cannot tolerate anyone born male in a female space is repealing the GRA and I just can't see that happening.

Interesting phrasing: makes it seem like Women are the problem. The men in the space are the problem. Then brings repealing GRA into it when no none has said that.

The only way I see forward is to keep segregated spaces, have a third safe space, work really hard towards increasing male acceptance of men who do not present in a masculine way and reducing Male violence to those people.

So this is actually a male problem. The problem is men and the solution needs to come from men. Let the men’s be unisex. Women however, require that space to be safe.