Who is standing up for women and girls?

[loveyouradvice]

So far, it looks like some brave individuals, various religious organisations and the newly formed Womans Place, Transgender Trend and FairPlay for women

Where are all the established women's charities, especially those with a strong history of campaigning? Someone to answer Stonewall and others powerfully?

What is the Fawcett Society doing?

Who else is there?

snap that's because they're different.

Loaded though because you start out by differentiating between "women" and "trans women

Yes I know what you’re trying to get people to say - the problem is that saying it will earn a report.

So humans, can they change sex?

I have said that there a some women might have a genuine problem which is more than bigotry.

Where is the bigotry? Definition of bigotry: intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself. What I see here is women who are concerned for their own privacy, dignity and safety and that of their daughters. That is only bigotry if you believe that women and girls have no right to privacy, dignity and safety.

But equally, if some women, because of particular history, need more privacy than other women, that should be provided.

So some women with a "particular history" who want privacy, dignity and safety are not bigots. Who decides who is a bigot and who isn't? And if, as you assert, transwomen are no different from women, then why would they need "more privacy" from other women?

But equally, if some women, because of particular history, need more privacy than other women, that should be provided.

All women need this. Or we are back to negotiation on the NO. It is not up for you to decide who is worthy of extra protection and who can go in with the men and risk it. It’s a blanket protection that should be the default for all women and children and it’s not up for negotiation.

If transwomen feel unsafe in an area (and NO ONE should be unsafe) then the question is how do we make transwomen safer without compromising the safety of women and girls?

The answer is not unisex areas, because transwomen say they are being harassed by men. So unisex won’t help will it?

Third spaces perhaps? Or making men less violent. Good luck with the latter, we will stand with you on that one, but we’ve been trying an awful long time ourselves and they’re resistant to change.

Bowlofbabelfish

I can understand this point of view. If you don't except that trans woman can come under woman and that you feel that they are still a type of man as you clearly do. In your post you stated

It is not up for you to decide who is worthy of extra protection.

So who does decide that? At the moment western society and other countries but by no means all have decided that trans woman require the facilities provided to other woman and not those provided for men and as I said you don't think that is right. By doing that they are in no way stating that they are the same but that they require the same facilities and rights and as is stated elsewhere on this site this is a balancing act of competing rights if you don't come from the point that trans woman are socially and legally woman.

So how do we change that I am genuinely open to ideas and having read about other cultures relation ship with gender eg third gender consepts do you not feel that we are slowly heading towards that with the increase in non binary presentation and that as more people identify as this that society and by default government will eventually have to address this and structure its self to include this concept. Maybe then some of the solutions people are putting forwards will be workable but it is hard to see how in this generation it can be easily done

I wish these trans women and allies would explain how we keep men out if we let trans women in? How would that be possible? Or is it not even a concern?

Snappity I continue to welcome your dissenting opinions on this board. But honestly, what sort of blinkered ideology would lead someone to reply to this:

It's also really important to acknowledge that many (most?) women's services were created by women in very difficult circumstances, and those women were often neither powerful nor well-resourced, but broke their backs to create those resources for other women."

With this:

Trans women are women, not men so this is irrelevant

Can you see how appropriative this is?

Where were all the vocal transwomen when these services were being set up?

Transwomen have their own set of struggles. I will support trans-specific spaces and services. But women are not transwomen. We have our own separate needs.

Materialist

Ask the trans woman who was raped by the man who saw her as another woman to abuse why she was raped if she was a man.

AngelsSins

I wish these gender critical people and allies would explain how we keep men out if we let trans men in? How would that be possible?

And so we go on

Bespin, males get raped too. Not in the same numbers as females. But for the same reasons (power, dominance). Being raped does not make one female.

Transmen rarely pose a threat to women and rarely pass. They are welcome to use female spaces, being female. If they pass then I imagine that they would feel more comfortable using male facilities. Its up to men to decide whether that is appropriate.

The solution was what WAS in place: women accepted the legal fiction that old school transsexuals were women.

The problem lies in the expanded definition of transwomen that basically now is: any male. At all

I dont really get why some people aren't getting this...years and years of no real issues, GRA, protection under law etc

And now some womyn have a problem with the second sentence and all hell has broken loose

Dragoncake
You may be interested to know that in some corners of the NUS, prominant officers (Trans / Womens / LGBT+) who are trans women and non-binary trans women have had a few issues with the mysogeny and transmysogeny of trans men, leading to quite a few situations where they (the trans women and non-binary trans women NUS officers) asserted the need to ensure that trans men should be excluded from female spaces and services.

That does interest me R0wantrees. How did that pan out?

Coming from the GC position, as I do, I read that situation as 'males take it upon themselves to exclude females from female spaces'.

It doesn't convince me that transmen pose an increased physical threat to anyone, male or female ( I think that statistics bear this out?) An increased threat to hurt feelings perhaps, but that is a different matter.

Snappity

Snappity has recognised that there is a conflict between the needs of transwomen and women and as such has proposed a solution that tries to meet the needs of both.

No. I have said that there a some women might have a genuine problem which is more than bigotry. So, rather than segregate trans women from women (trans women are women) we should be looking at which women might need more support than other women and providing it.

Let’s look again at what you said.

Because if for instance there were 6 rooms with (say) half kept for women with actual issues of being with trans women, the service could be inclusive while still meeting the need if some women had an actual problem.

First of all you are using “women” and “transwomen” to recognise the difference between the two. That’s a great start as you are seeing that we need to distinguish between the two groups here.

Then you recognise that women may have “issues” sharing facilities with transwomen. It’s great that you have listened to what we have been saying and have recognised our needs.

And finally you say that some rooms could be kept aside for these women who have issues sharing with transwomen.

That means there are segregated spaces for these women!

You can phrase this as ‘more support’ if you would like, if you don’t like the word segregation, that’s absolutley fine.

It seems like you are uncomfortable acknowledging that you have come up with something that, for me at least, is a really good stab at meeting the needs of both women and transwomen. Is that not what we should be aiming for?

So who does decide that?

By sex. Like we’ve always done.

socially and legally women

Neither social perception nor legal status will work like sex segregation will. A rapist is not considering the social perception and they’re certainly not considering legal status.
Segregated by sex, you have blanket protection for women and children. There is no need to change this. Third spaces would protect transwomen without harm to women and children - why arent these being fought for by this powerful lobby?

Male violence is the problem here. And I agree with PP who says that men simply do not understand the level and ubiquity of that violence. It permeates everything.

A male friend of mine who is quite small and slight was badly beaten by some thug and had his skull fractured a few years back. I’ve spoken to him and his wife since and he’s said, several times, that the thing that’s really stayed with him is how he is now on edge all the time in many places and scenarios. He was perceptive enough to say that his wife had been telling him for years that she felt like that in public and now he understands. I think it’s been a massive revelation for him. I also think very few men truly understand this. Women are effectively prey animals. Men have not been socialised like this.

When we sort out male violence, we can talk about having no sex segregated spaces. Until then, it’s the simplest, most effective way of protecting women and children.

When we sort out male violence, we can talk about having no sex segregated spaces. Until then, it’s the simplest, most effective way of protecting women and children.

Exactly. Until then, it's no is a complete sentence and not the beginning of a negotiation.

Ms Crook, executive director of theHoward League for Penal Reform, added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

I know this was posted last night, but I have just read it. What a powerful statement, and recognition of the male violence that is now being discussed.

Coming from the GC position, as I do, I read that situation as 'males take it upon themselves to exclude females from female spaces'.

I think also coming from a position of using biological fact, this would be the same conclusion.

There were some clear issues within the heart of NUS Trans/LGBT+/Women's prior to the NUS trans 18 conference.

You may remember it gained some publicity following the attempts by some delegates to redesignate/ occupy the women's toilets in the hotel (where there was a conference for BorderForce employees)

thread is here & worth reading: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237230-NUS-Conference-breaks-down-after-the-UK-Border-Force-Arrive

With regards some NUS Trans/LGBT+/Women's officers and wider links to extreme TRA positions and actions, Rose of Dawn's video is very insightful and has identifies important links:

Thanks for the links R0wantrees. I'll read them later when I have a bit more time.