Who is standing up for women and girls?

[loveyouradvice]

So far, it looks like some brave individuals, various religious organisations and the newly formed Womans Place, Transgender Trend and FairPlay for women

Where are all the established women's charities, especially those with a strong history of campaigning? Someone to answer Stonewall and others powerfully?

What is the Fawcett Society doing?

Who else is there?

sarahAr

This post relies on 3 fallacies:1) That transwomen are not women.

Do you believe humans can change sex?

You know what? Fuck off!!

I am not a non trans woman! I an not a non anything. I am not cis. I am a WOMAN. That's it. No need to jump over yourself to add any extras. It's a simple word...woman. It's the correct word too..woman. It's what I am due to my biological sex,my chromosomes. I am a woman.

As a courtesy i will use the term transwoman , if I'm not allowed that, I will refer back to biology and use man.

Re Vancouver Rape Relief mentioned upthread:

'Rape Relief v. Nixon, transphobia, and the value of women-only space:
"Although the Nixon v. Rape Relief case was settled back in 2007, with a dismissal of Kimberly Nixon’s request to appeal the B.C. Court of Appeals decision (that decision being that “Vancouver Rape Relief has the right to prefer to train women who have never been treated as anything but female”), the case continues to be a source of controversy. In an effort to address misinformation, accusations of “transphobia”, and to give Lee Lakeman the opportunity to respond...

Lee Lakeman: It must be 15 years ago now…What happened is that a male-to-female transsexual, although we didn’t know whether Nixon was a transsexual right away, arrived at a training group — that’s a pretty easy thing to do because Vancouver Rape Relief & Women’s Shelter has a pretty open policy about who can train; we have three screening questions that are kind of the bottom line – if you get past the first three screening questions which essentially show that you’re willing to learn, then you’re welcome into the training group. But at that point, and this is many years ago, it was fairly obvious to everybody that it was women-only....." continues with interview & explanation

www.feministcurrent.com/2012/05/14/rape-relief-v-nixon-transphobia-and-the-value-of-women-only-space-an-interview-with-lee-lakeman/

Why can't transwomen campaign and fundraise for their own facilities? This is what women have done. Why do transwomen feel entitled to use the services set up by women for women instead of getting together to set up their own services for their own needs?

This ^

I am a woman, too. And as you are alliowed to use "transwoman", there are no excuses for abusive misgendering.
But I am not allowed to use the c prefix, even in situations where we need to discuss the differences between trans and non-trans women. In that context, using "woman" by itself would be ambiguous,, so there is no practical option but to use non-trans as an alternative.

Personally, I would prefer to use the c prefix, but MN HQ has spoken. So "non-trans" it has to be.

How many such children are there in the UK? I'm sure a separate facility can be found for a child with a penis who is taking cross-sex hormones. Children under 16 should not be taking them at all.

@OldCrone, you are advocating segregation of people who do not fit your world view. Integration is the hallmark mark of a civilised society.

Good to know your opinion Damn

It chimes with the Green Party's invitation back in 2016 describing 'non-men':

(extract)
'Feminists have attacked an invitation to “non-men” by the young women’s arm of the Green.'

“Women/non-men who are Young Greens can find and join our Facebook group 'Young Greens Women'”, they tweeted on 26 March.

Green Party Women, whose stated aim on Facebook is “to advance gender equality both within… and outside the Green Party”, defended their sister group's comment, saying “Green Party Women, as a whole, are happy with terms such as 'non-men' to be used.”

But on Friday Ms Criado-Perez, who led the campaign to keep a woman on English banknotes and co-founded feminist media website The Women's Room, called the Green Party Women's response "the most anti-woman anti-feminist ignorant bulls* I have seen in some time".

"Women are not "non-men", she tweeted, urging the Greens to "sort your s* out". "You do not include people by establishing men as default human," she added." (continues)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/feminists-mock-green-party-young-womens-invite-to-non-men-a6987061.html

Rowan, the VRC example doesn't get any less shocking, no matter how many times I see it. The utter self-centred-ness of it...

So "non-trans" it has to be.

The word to use in this scenario is woman.

It is so amazing to see all these grassroots organisations springing up, and the courageous and dedicated women doing the work that is required to secure the sex-based rights and protections of women and girls.

I think about the books and papers that will be written in the future about this time period and I imagine girls born in 50 years, at school, writing essays about these women and organisations.

It’s also great to see posters like Snappity finally beginning to support the right to privacy and dignity for women and girls.

And it’s a beautiful day!

Personally, I would prefer to use the c prefix, but MN HQ has spoken. So "non-trans" it has to be.

As I understand it, women on all sides dislike the dilution of woman when applied to them. I think the way to have civilised debate is to drop all gender or sex related prefixes to the word woman.

It’s also great to see posters like Snappity finally beginning to support the right to privacy and dignity for women and girls.

Absolutely women and girls with a trans history deserve the privacy and dignity of women-only spaces as much as all other women and girls.

The word to use in this scenario is woman.

I agree. Equally it should be woman not transwoman as some here use. There needs to be symmetry, reciprocity and equality in respect.

Transwoman is appropriate in context.

Unless you think humans can change sex?

Snappity Good to know your opinion too.

Your comment, "you are advocating segregation of people who do not fit your world view" chimes with the statement by Gina Denham police officer and (I think) founder of Transpire as reported & discussed on the thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3199413-interesting-school-toilets-story

"An organisation called Transpire then got involved. Their spokesperson is quoted as saying "I find it quite amazing some schools are branding it respect when in fact it is segregation ... It's about giving people the opportunity to use the toilet they are comfortable with, not what the school is comfortable with."

cf yesterday's Times article 'Gender‑neutral toilets: My daughter was called selfish for wanting girls‑only loos at school'

(concludes)
"The weeks passed and my daughter — along with others who were unhappy with the new loos — kept complaining, but their complaints fell on deaf ears. They were told to put up and shut up and think of others. As a parent, this felt wrong. Did only the transgender voice matter? What about my daughter’s voice? Shouldn’t both be listened to?

My daughter saw red. She started a petition for boys, girls and gender-neutrals to sign. Hundreds did. She insisted that a school council meeting be held and unisex toilets discussed. They were. And you know what? Eventually hers and other unhappy voices were listened to. And against the odds the toilets were quietly changed back to how they had been, with a smaller provision of unisex toilets kept for those who choose to use them.

It’s been a tough but fulfilling school year in which my child has learnt that if you’re passionate enough about something, you can effect change.

Don’t think for one minute, however, that she’s not sensitive to the transgender child. She is. She just wants everyone’s voices to be heard. It’s not about changing the law one way or the other. It’s about making sure that there’s provision for people of all genders or non-genders and that everyone feels comfortable everywhere."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/genderneutral-toilets-my-daughter-was-called-selfish-for-wanting-girlsonly-loos-at-school

There needs to be symmetry, reciprocity and equality in respect.

Attempting to appropriate womanhood is not terribly respectful.

Insistence on not using an acronym that denotes natal sex while insisting on using a term which appropriated natal sex is not terribly respectful either.

Not all arguments are equal. The POMO ideal of having a ‘balance’ where both sides’ opinion is given equal weight is a logical fallacy.

When I get on a plane, I let the pilot fly.

Absolutely women and girls with a trans history deserve the privacy and dignity of women-only spaces as much as all other women and girls.

You weren’t referring to people with a trans history, it was this quote from you from a page or so back:

Because if for instance there were 6 rooms with (say) half kept for women with actual issues of being with trans women, the service could be inclusive while still meeting the need if some women had an actual problem.

I found it really encouraging to see you acknowlege the needs of women without a trans history here. Feels like progress!

@Snappity The Equality Act allows for single sex spaces where appropriate. If you think that this is uncivilised, I suggest you write to your MP to lobby for the removal of all sex-segregated spaces. I will meanwhile write to mine to campaign to keep them.

women and girls with a trans history deserve the privacy and dignity of women-only spaces as much as all other women and girls.

How can this be achieved though, as the former’s desire to enter the latter’s spaces creates a conflict of rights? Are we back to third spaces?

Integration is the hallmark of a civilized society. Good job that the law allows for sex-segregation where necessary, so there are legally defined limits to integration. Civilized society recognizes that penises in facilities where females are vulnerable (get undressed, medical treatment, counselling) are not acceptable. It’s a shame that women and girls are being made vulnerable by those who insist on inserting penises into female sex-segregated spaces. It really isn’t civilized, however you spin it.
Now just to continue to work to ensure the exemptions are recognized and prioritized.
No penises in female sex-segregated spaces. Not in schools. Not in hospitals. Not in prisons. Not in counselling.
Erosion of female rights doesn’t become palatable because you believe in fairies.

Yes Bowl, segregated spaces is what Snappity is advocating for here:

Because if for instance there were 6 rooms with (say) half kept for women with actual issues of being with trans women, the service could be inclusive while still meeting the need if some women had an actual problem.

twitter.com/ResistersUK

Absolutely women and girls with a trans history deserve the privacy and dignity of women-only spaces as much as all other women and girls.

Just to be clear, Snappity, do you actually mean "women and girls with penises deserve the privacy and dignity of women-only spaces as much as all other women and girls."?

Do you not see any conflict between this right and the right of female-born women and girls to have penis-free spaces?

OldCrone I think Snappity does indeed see the conflict, as she has advocated for segregated spaces on this thread.

@Damnthatonestakentryanother2 transwomen and women it's simple to differentiate.
There is nothing ambiguous about using the term woman.