please don't vanish - we are all crucial to the future for women and girls

[loveyouradvice]

This is just a plea for that really....

I do understand how upset so many people are about Mumsnet's recent policies and the confusion and hurt they have caused - yes I have sobbed tears late into the night too

But please stay! I am sad so many are fleeing - and hope that some will maintain their sanity by not being on here every day, but coming on when feeling strong enough.

More than anything I think it is important that many of us are here now, with the government consultation launching on 7 July - speaking out on this board and AIBU and chat - so that people understand the conflict between women/girls right and trans rights as currently proposed - so that people understand what we may be about to lose before we do - and recognise that this isn't transphobia, but actually talking about the challenges and doing that much-quoted but seldom done "equality impact assessment" for everyone affected

It is fine and fair to ask about what will happen to women and girls - and to want transpeople to have strong rights

I have seen some shocking posts. Women who have survived physical health issues, infertility, cancer and birth injuries, having their experiences being used by males.

Threads derailed to discuss the above.

The gaslighting is very damaging to many.

Women, aren't being protected from abuse here, only males feelings matter here.

Many people with many agendas are on these boards.

I don't blame people who leave.

This board has been a revelation to me. I'm in my 60s now but never noticed male socialisation and entitlement until it was pointed out to me here. ...and now I see it everywhere.

I thought of you all yesterday when a penis owner here in Spain was trespassing and I told him forcefully to bugger off. I then followed him to the main gate, several paces behind. He was cursing and spitting as he went, like a three year old having a tantrum. At the gate he turned round and made rude gesticulations towards his genitals; fortunately my Spanish isn't good enough to understand, but I got the gist. But you know what, thanks to you lot, I wasn't frightened by his aggression, it just made me even more mad and stand my ground. So the brain-in-a-dick stormed off, chased away by a 5'1" silver haired grannie.

And it felt good

Some woman have taken themselves away from here to protect themselves from the abusers currently trolling the board. But no one has gone away.

Remember the suffragettes: "courage calls to courage everywhere".

And if you haven't seen this yet: start your day with a fabulous reminder of how women are fighting back:

I've only got as far Mary's comment, but it describes so perfectly what I think and feel that I have to repeat it...

You know what I mind more than being told what to say? I mind the fact that others, new to this board, neither feminists nor women, are allowed to say what they like to the rest of us.

They are allowed to register, and within minutes start lecturing us. Telling us what to think and what to say. Telling us lies, and calling us names for questioning those lies. They are allowed to report us, to bully us, to belittle us. To make jokes about and minimise problems that individuals have (for example infertility, domestic abuse, birth injury and much more).

They are being positively encouraged to come, to register, to be nasty to everyone. And eventually when they finally cross the pretty much invisible line in the sand in the far distance that is MN's new position of goaders/abusers/MRAs/fantasists they are asked to leave, at which point they re-register.

We know they are PBPs but yet they are given the chance to start again, to continue with their abuse and their gas-lighting and their lies.

Meanwhile those of us who have been here for a long time are disregarded, dismissed and patronised.

It's the unfairness that gets to me, even more than the newspeak and the lies and the attempts to control our thoughts.

YES!!!

Delighted to hear you're digging in Bowlofbabelfish. I positively relish watching you deploy your scientific laser beam

I can only imagine how distressing some of those posters must be. But at the same time they’re an absolute gift. Lurkers aren’t stupid.

I’m so grateful to posters like babel who can debunk the faux science. And to the ones who know the law. I sometimes feel I can’t contribute much beyond snurking - but I’m trying to do more.

It’s been over a year since I posted here. Last time was just before DS3 was born, and it was about TRAs complaining about period chat being transphobic (I had a little chat with Rufus’ DS, I think...) and how I was sick of bisexuals and lesbians being called transphobic.

In the past year or so, I’ve had a baby, gone back to work, quit my job, changed country, changed language, and job hunted. I’ve been reading these boards and watching YouTubers express my rage. But I think it’s time to step back up and start expressing it myself. And give much more vocal support to those who have been protesting for the rest of us.

I’ve been speaking face-to-face to friends and family, planting seeds of GC thoughts, and talking about the cotton ceiling, misused statistics, and transing children. About the erasure of personality differences and sexuality. And some people are listening, a little bit. And that’s a start, even a little bit of doubt creeps in and makes it hard to accept everything they’re being sold. And face-to-face is great, but I can only reach small numbers like that, and the one place we shouldn’t be being silenced is on the internet!

When I wrote my thread back in Nov ‘16, we were saying that it was starting to look like peak trans was approaching, it would burn itself out soon etc etc, but it’s all still going on, and now people are being deleted and banned for speaking the truth. On Mumsnet! It’s crazy!

So this is me, signing in again. I’m a bit out of practice, but I want to be able to support those of you who have been doing an absolutely outstanding job of standing up and speaking for women

Yes, exactly as Maryz says.

The guidelines are framed as gender critical feminists who want free speech versus trans posters who are vulnerable:

Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with vulnerable or oppressed minorities.

Women may not be a minority but many of us are vulnerable and as a class we are oppressed.

Some have criticised Mumsnet for allowing posts that some trans people find offensive, even hateful.

I am right now criticising Mumsnet for allowing posts that many of here, long term posters, mostly women, find offensive and hateful.

To try to create a more civil and mutually respectful conversation ...

There is nothing civil or mutually respectful about the way this debate has been allowed to develop since these new rules were instigated.

We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people.

Instead you are allowing many many posts which are derogatory and aggressive towards women, including direct attacks on long term posters.

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

This board is chock full of sweeping negative generalisations about gender-critical feminists.

what we’re trying to do here is create a more civilised and constructive discussion

It's not working.

We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists or anyone else (except perhaps trolls). If you can abide by our rules – the spirit and not just the letter – we want you to feel you can be a part of the community.

Mumsnet now feels inherently hostile to gender critical feminists. I don't think it feels inherently hostile to trolls. They appear to be having a good time. I no longer feel I can be part of this community.

I'm not leaving, I will stay and continue reading. I will post information and links etc. but I will no longer discuss or debate on this board, at least not while it's like this. I hope it's temporary.

I fully support all the women who need to leave or at least take time out away from the gaslighting and abusive environment FWR has become. No woman should be required to stay.

I'm staying though. Hi lurkers!

There is nothing civil or mutually respectful about the way this debate has been allowed to develop since these new rules were instigated.

This! This! This!

Well said Maryz and pencils

I've returned from a time of R and R in lurkdom and am not going anywhere. The new guidelines are unfortunate but it's still possible to hold the conversation.

Nowhere else do we have such a good chance of grabbing women's attention. I'd have no clue about any of this if it wasn't for MN women. I want to make sure that girls and young women enjoy the same protections that my generation had.

Having said that, I strongly object to the exclusion of autistic women and others from this conversation by dint of vague language. I just meant that I intend to persist.

I'm going nowhere

Took me long enough to get here. Im not leaving. Yes I think what's happening is wrong. But it will backfire on them. My tent is pitched.

For those of you staying, I’m standing beside you. For those who are going, thank you for all you have done. For opening my eyes to this. I know wherever you go to, or if you step back from it all completely, you’ll continue fighting for women and girls.
I don’t often say much, but I read a lot and if there’s one thing guaranteed to piss me off it’s telling me I can’t do something while letting others get away with it....that and bad science

There is nothing civil or mutually respectful about the way this debate has been allowed to develop since these new rules were instigated.

This! This! This!

Co signed! ^

Och the 'science' is sooooo bad

Yes to Maryz - this is not a fair balanced policy and needs revisiting

Until the new guidelines came in I was just one of the lurkers learning from all the wise women in this board - thank you for all you have taught me.

It's time for us lurkers to stand up and be counted. And I'm standing ready to be counted. If I end up banned, so be it. Unfortunately I don't really have anything interesting or particularly intelligent to post, but I'm here

Well said Maryz and pencils

^ this!

I've been a long-time lurker - occasionally commenting but mostly reading, admiring and learning from what others have said. Now that so many of these amazing women are being forced from this board, I will do what I can to stand up and be counted, as Lysistra suggests. I've always been a GC feminist but wouldn't be able to justify my position to myself or others nearly as well without all the input from the amazing MN posters. I am beyond depressed at how this is panning out since the guidelines but I will try to step up and contribute more unless (until?) I'm also banned.

for all the stepper-upperers and baton graspers.

It's not a sprint it's a relay race and we will get there.

Women rise. So nice to see the lurkers. Actually rather moving.

It's not a sprint it's a relay race

Absolutely spot on.

Everything Pencils said.

With bells on.

But they'll have to carry me out in a box