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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender vs Sex. Is it too late to reclaim the correct meanings?

102 replies

Macareaux · 25/06/2018 07:25

The two are used so interchangeably in common parlance. But is it worth correcting people and organisations or is the conflation too deeply ingrained?

I was prompted to think about this by a tweet from 50:50 Parliament (but then remembered that they count men in dresses towards their 50% goal.)

Gender vs Sex. Is it too late to reclaim the correct meanings?
OP posts:
TimeLady · 26/06/2018 17:08

Meanings of words are being surreptitiously appropriated, particularly female related ones, and that's the bit that's really scary. But we can fight this by calling out inaccuracies whenever we see them - every single time.

SarahCarer · 26/06/2018 17:10

I agree and will definitely join in with that.

SarahCarer · 26/06/2018 17:13

It's wierd though isn't it, because it isn't really polite to ask about someone's body when they're applying for a credit card or booking a theatre ticket. What they should really ask for in these situations is preferred salutation.

SarahCarer · 26/06/2018 17:15

Eg. Ms, Miss, Mrs, Mr, none (first name)

TimeLady · 26/06/2018 17:18

I've been happily married 41 years and very very rarely refer to myself as Mrs. Always my forename.

TheClitterati · 26/06/2018 17:24

If gender has been recorded as personal data, it cannot simply be re-labelled as sex unless one believes that sex = gender.

there is no way that the words female or male are a description of gender. They are factual descriptors of biological sex.

R0wantrees · 26/06/2018 18:43

I've been reading a bit about the history of Quakers' plain speech and their rejection of the singular pronoun 'you'.

(worth recalling their history with regards conscientious objection)

"George Fox however was not the first of the religious writers, who had noticed the improper use of the pronoun you. Erasmus employed a treatise in showing the propriety of thou when addressed to a single person, and in ridiculing the use of you on the same occasion. Martin Luther also took great pains to expunge the word you from the station which it occupied, and to put thou in its place. In his Ludus, he ridicules the use of the former by the, following invented sentence, “Magister, Vosestis iratus?” This is as absurd, as if he had said in English “gentlemen art thou angry”?

But though George Fox was not the first to recommend the substitution of thou for you, he was the first to reduce this amended use of it to practice. This he did in his own person, wherever he went, and in all the works which he published. All his followers did the same. And, from his time to the present, the pronoun thou has come down so prominent in the speech of the society, that a Quaker is generally known by it at the present day.

The reader would hardly believe, if historical facts did not prove it, how much noise the introduction or rather the amended use of this little particle, as reduced to practice by George Fox, made in the world, and how much ill usage it occasioned the early Quakers. Many magistrates, before whom they were carried in the early times of their institution occasioned their sufferings to be greater merely on this account. They were often abused and beaten by others, and sometimes put in danger of their lives. It was a common question put to a Quaker in those days, who addressed a great man in this new and simple manner, “why you ill bred clown do you thou me?” The rich and mighty of those times thought themselves degraded by this mode of address, as reducing them from a plural magnitude to a singular, or individual, or simple station in life. “The use of thou, says George Fox, was a sore cut to proud flesh, and those who sought self-honor.

George Fox, finding that both he and his followers were thus subject to much persecution on this account, thought it right the world should know, that, in using this little particle which had given so much offence, the Quakers were only doing what every grammarian ought to do, if he followed his own rules. Accordingly a Quaker-work was produced, which was written to show that in all languages thou was the proper and usual form of speech to a single person, and you to more than one"

www.worldspirituality.org/quaker-language.html

NotARegularPenguin · 26/06/2018 18:48

Did a job application todau.

Got asked for my gender.

Then "Do you currently identify as the same gender you were assigned at birth".

I could scream. For a university lecturer post. Actually I could weep.

R0wantrees · 26/06/2018 19:01

That would be a N/A response?

NotARegularPenguin · 26/06/2018 19:37

No n/A option. Though there is a "I prefer not to say" so might do that.

R0wantrees · 26/06/2018 19:50

Perhaps if you get the job, worth raising!

Good luck with application.

NotARegularPenguin · 26/06/2018 19:58

Oh I will. Bizarre when it's the equality monitoring page and sex is a protected characteristic not gender.

R0wantrees · 26/06/2018 21:16

NotARegularPenguin

Have you checked the University in question's Diversity and Equality policy?
Sex is one of the 9 protected characteristics but it has recently come to light that many LAs, Statuatory services and organisations have mistakenly replaced sex with gender.

When challenged, increasing numbers are correcting their mistake however it it is reasonable to assume that any error may have informed some policies, documents approaches etc

Explained here: womansplaceuk.org/grassroots-womens-pressure-forces-local-authorities-to-comply-with-the-law-over-sex-and-gender/

NotARegularPenguin · 26/06/2018 21:47

Not checked the policy yet but am aware of WPUK and the work they’re doing contacting councils. Will see what their policy says but don’t want to make a fuss until after the interview process.

NotARegularPenguin · 26/06/2018 21:50

Ok, just found the policy. Sex isn’t mentioned once. Gender is a few times. Also talks about the gender pay gap.

NotARegularPenguin · 26/06/2018 21:52

Transitional States was launched February 2018 marking a month long exhibition and programme of public engagement events that are designed to challenge, educate and raise debates about how hormones, Science and the Arts interact, to explore the history of societal and scientific views vs the reality of the lived experiences and expression and self and ‘gender’ identity.

Ok. Blimey, don’t know who wrote their policy but it’s a load of meaningless twaddle inc the above delight.

R0wantrees · 26/06/2018 23:16

I'm sure its very common. I was with family last week, their children's primary school Diversity & Equality policy very muddled. No mention of 'sex' as protected characteristic.

GollyGoshGreat · 26/06/2018 23:27

If someone was minded to perhaps they could do a freedom of information request to the Office of Parliamentary Council to ask for copies of the instructions to council given for the bill that became the Equality Act 2010 and the letters exchanged in respect those instructions.

Someone could also review the Hansard record of the debates of the public bill committee and in the commons debates to understand what was said in respect of the various clauses in the draft bill and what was Parliament’s intention when passing the draft bill through the house to achieve Royal Assent.

Here is a link to the committee debate on the bill. The submissions made the committee are also available.

This one from the Fitness Industry Association is interesting making the case for single sex provision.

Sorry if this has already been posted but if anyone has the time to do this then I think it would be really interesting - but there is a danger that we won’t like the outcome.

I would do this myself but unfortunately I’m working very long hours and this would push me over the edge.

thebewilderness · 27/06/2018 00:51

It's wierd though isn't it, because it isn't really polite to ask about someone's body when they're applying for a credit card or booking a theatre ticket. What they should really ask for in these situations is preferred salutation.

Forms asked for sex for as long as I can remember.
Men have created a hypersexualized society were they appear to have decided they only want sex to mean fucking regardless of how many words are already available. It is rather like the word intercourse being sexualized so it could no longer be used as had long been done.

R0wantrees · 27/06/2018 00:57

Its worth being aware of the ideological position of some trans rights activists.

Gender vs Sex. Is it too late to reclaim the correct meanings?
ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2018 01:17

I wish the science faculty of his university would provide that pomo-addled fool with some basic biology lessons.

R0wantrees · 27/06/2018 01:23

Errol HAve you listened to the BBC World service discussion with Aimee Challenor (Green Party LGBT+ spokesperson I think) & Miranda Yardley?

I've yet to.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3286600-BBC-World-Service-programme-about-Miranda-Yardley-and-Aimee-Challenor

GardenGeek · 27/06/2018 03:24

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GardenGeek · 27/06/2018 03:25

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GardenGeek · 27/06/2018 03:25

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