Gender vs Sex. Is it too late to reclaim the correct meanings?

[Macareaux]

The two are used so interchangeably in common parlance. But is it worth correcting people and organisations or is the conflation too deeply ingrained?

I was prompted to think about this by a tweet from 50:50 Parliament (but then remembered that they count men in dresses towards their 50% goal.)

WPUK
"Grassroots women’s pressure forces local authorities to comply with the law over sex and gender
Local councils around Britain have been forced to change legally inaccurate equalities information on their websites by women’s rights campaigners. Many authorities have been found to be in breach of the Equalities Act by stating that “gender” is a protected characteristic, as opposed to “sex,” and some authorities have listed the two terms interchangeably, which they have sought to rectify due to sustained campaigning.

Supported and encouraged by grassroots campaign group Women’s Place UK and others, women from across Britain are now writing to their local councils to ensure that they have the correct list of nine protected characteristics.

Clackmannanshire initially replied to queries by saying ‘Hi, we talk about gender discrimination rather then sex discrimination as it’s more inclusive.”

twitter.com/ClacksCouncil/status/1005104288253861892

But after being challenged by campaigners have corrected their guidance

twitter.com/ClacksCouncil/status/1006109396491960321

Derbyshire County Council were also initially defiant in the incorrect use of their terms

twitter.com/Derbyshirecc/status/1006103009695293440

but after lots of women contacted them to challenge this position they agreed to change the wording

twitter.com/Derbyshirecc/status/1007226036667473920

Some of the other councils who have corrected their guidance after lobbying by campaigners are Nottinghamshire, Stockport, West Oxfordshire, Wigan, Bournemouth, Salford, Winchester, Manchester City, Luton, Lambeth and Kensington & Chelsea, Pembrokeshire, Wrexham and Rhondda Cynon Taff.

The Welsh Government has also made the changes after being contacted by campaigners.

Women across the UK will continue to challenge councils and other organisations who are getting equality law wrong."

womansplaceuk.org/grassroots-womens-pressure-forces-local-authorities-to-comply-with-the-law-over-sex-and-gender/

It's says sex is being a man or a woman. It doesn't say anything about gender in the sex section. I think you need to go back and read it again. It helps if you go back to the Act itself rather than via a third party explainer e.g. the EHRC. Here's the link. Hope it helps you Snappity. link to Equality Act for snappity

"Do you really? I'm struggling to think of anything where I'd care about someone's 'gender' rather than their sex.confused. Can you give an example of a situation where people are likely to care more about gender?" Predicting how and where people will spend their money

Can you give an example of a situation where people are likely to care more about gender?"

Predicting how and where people will spend their money

Is that it?

Timlady a gem of an answer!

Oh sorry Sarah said it first. But that must be it gender is pushed by advertisers so we spend more money

Ha ha. Timlady...an unfortunate typo in the current climate on Mumsnet!

SarahCarer
'Predicting how and where people will spend their money'.

I'm so glad I asked for clarification. Making life easier for marketing folk is really persuasive evidence for the assertion that : ' It is gender society really cares about, not sex.'.

And even there, I'm not convinced gender matters more than sex. Want to have a go at developing your argument?

As the media is funded by marketing and it shapes the ideas of society it has a very powerful effect in my opinion.

Including social media, oh, and Mumsnet

It might have a powerful effect. It it’s not necessarily ethical.

Making policy based on marketing strategies for corporations isn’t something I’d vote for.

But does it perhaps explain where the activists' funding is coming from?

Since you mention Mumsnet specifically, it's very unlikely that members of a parenting forum really care more about 'gender' than sex. This site is fundamentally dependent on biological realities. People, women in particular come here for support on issues TTC, infertility, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, PND. That's the bedrock.

(And then there's fun stuff like the hedge thread... honestly if you think people are less interested in sex than gender you're a bit naive!)

Does Mumsnet still ask for gender rather than sex on registration? Maybe that's a deliberate marketing strategy rather an oversight.

I must admit I opt for the prefer not to say if possible (which is available on MN, to their credit)

Yes, it's still says 'gender' though as there's a binary choice plus 'prefer not to say' clearly it's a euphemism for sex. This is completely ridiculous on a parenting site which has a 'sex' topic.

I have reported this thread and sent MN the following:

Dear MNHQ,

I've had a look at my account details (completed many years ago) and under your request for my Gender I have responded "Female". Well obviously as I think we are all too aware of "Female" is an indicator of biological sex and not of "gender" which is a social construct and a stereotypical expression of masculinity and femininity among others.

Could you please review your account detail questions - I think that you want to know MNer's SEX - ie are they male or female? Ideally, as language is important, please could you correct your question - or at least provide your members with a question that matches sensibly with the answers you provide for us to select from. I do think that there is a duty to ensure the data you hold on MN'ers is accurate.

When you ask me what my gender is, I answered "female" even though I know it is an incorrect nonsensical answer. And I do this because I need to tick a box to proceed. Please can you ask us a question that corresponds with correct answers, so we can all be on the same page.

If you need any clarification as to what the difference between Sex and Gender is, just ask on FWC or check out this: sexandgenderintro.com/

Thank you
TheClitterati.

I've posted this before but it's only relatively recently that the terms 'sex' and 'gender' have had different meanings, so it's not surprising that there is confusion amongst anyone over the age of about 45. It wasn't a loose euphemism - they meant the same thing.

I've posted before this definition from my 1991 Collins dictionary:

1. a set of two or more grammatical categories into which the nouns of a certain language are divided, sometimes but not necessarily corresponding to the sex of the referent when animate
2. any of the categories, such as masculine, feminine, neuter or common within such a set
3. (informal) the state of being male, female or neuter
4. (informal) all the members of one sex: the female gender.

It doesn't mention identity or social constructs or any of the things that in the intervening 26 years gender has come to mean.

Is there actually a legal definition of gender and sex that is now being used? If so, could someone post it?

The meaning used to be just grammatical. Here's what the expert in English usage had to say less than a century ago:

In 1926, Henry Watson Fowler stated that the definition of the word pertained to this grammar-related meaning:
"Gender...is a grammatical term only. To talk of persons...of the masculine or feminine g[ender], meaning of the male or female sex, is either a jocularity (permissible or not according to context) or a blunder."

Well, words can change their meanings and be co-opted for other purposes but if it leads to communication being less clear this is a bad thing and should be resisted, especially when laws are being framed.

That's why I wondered if there was a legal definition because it seems to be evolving on a daily basis which makes framing laws very difficult.

Could you please review your account detail questions - I think that you want to know MNer's SEX - ie are they male or female? Ideally, as language is important, please could you correct your question - or at least provide your members with a question that matches sensibly with the answers you provide for us to select from. I do think that there is a duty to ensure the data you hold on MN'ers is accurate.

If gender has been recorded as personal data, it cannot simply be re-labelled as sex unless one believes that sex = gender.

So, if sex = gender there is no need to change
If sex ≠ gender, changing would mean that gender in the database cannot be re-labelled as sex

No one suggested doing that snappity. How many people have you got feeding you these answers?

It's not too late! Do what I do and correct it every time. I don't care who I piss off, it's infuriating to hear it used interchangeably.

I feel like I post here quite a lot these days and yet I always have to reassert my gender critical credentials. I know sex matters more than gender. I know gender is bad for women. I know it is a social construct. I know I do not have a pink brain. Thanks very much to the poster who called me naive for not thinking sex matters to people. I know sex matters. But gender related expectations and subtle gender related coercion are EVERYWHERE. How could I deny that when I'm a rad fem? Female socialisation would not happen without people making it happen. Society is not separate from the people that constitute it. The enforcement of gender norms happen because people say the stuff and do the stuff that makes it happen. If it is sex that really matters to people and that is what people really mean by gender then why does virtually every form ask about gender when sex is irrelevant in that situation?

Our oppression happens because of our sex but gender is what makes it happen and for that to be so widespread people have to have incorporated gendered expectations into their personalities and characters. They impose these on themselves and on other people.

SarahCarer

Because if the question on the form asks gender, most people instinctively assume that it is asking for your sex, and up until now have never bothered to question it, assuming the organisation was simply being polite.