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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posters jumping before they're pushed

455 replies

spontaneousgiventime · 24/06/2018 23:22

Well MNHQ we have the start of the exodus. Posters leaving due to these new guidelines that throw women under the bus.

A poster has deleted their account today due to the upset and stress of getting a strike for saying something that is 100% true. We know it's true because TRA's posted it on Twitter themselves, yet we post it and it's kick off time at HQ

It's a fucking disgrace HQ WOMEN are your target audience yet you don't give a fucking shiny shit about us. Not a fucking shit and it stinks.

More and more women will leave and you will be left with nothing more than people who present as opposite to their birth sex sitting posting about heels, make-up, clothes and fucking knitting.

Good luck with that one.

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MistressDeeCee · 25/06/2018 09:01

Why would MN care if people leave? Their job will be easier without the Feminism section.

Other parts of MN won't care. Until their DD runs home from a swimming pool or changing room bawling as a bloke was in there wanting a chat.

Or precious DD is gifted at sport but her future career is annihilated by a man presenting as a girl who will run rings round her

Won't happen for some time but that's when they'll care. & MN will be on the wrong side of history, because this bubble of pandering to a few silly, noisesome, troublesome people who will never ever be what they want to be, will burst.

If they really thought they could replace women they'd be out there very loudly proclaiming it. You'd see them on TV, at rallies etc stating their case.

But you won't, because they're silly little monied boys who want to hassle women. & via the internet they can get on with that power trip.

Be honest - how many people in RL do you hear talking about this subject day to day? You won't - it's an internet war and MN as grown people should've stayed out of it

In 10/20 years time 1/2 of these privileged lot will have conveniently forgotten they wanted to be a woman. They won't want rid of male monied privilege. Which is actually tied in with this whole thing. They may make career choices that won't suit being a man in a dress, and not want to scupper their chances

If on wrong side of history then fine if that's the choice - but it's to be hoped there isn't any hypocritical backtracking when MN is hung out to dry by the DM etc readers it does and will continue to attract now.

Suffragettes - those very brave women who fought for women's rights unto death - must be spinning in their graves

ApplesinmyPocket · 25/06/2018 09:08

A friend of mine was deleted last night for saying essentially that 'men are men'.

I used to post on these issues - went on holiday before all this really kicked off with the Rules, and since I've come back I've found myself half-writing post after post and deleting it.

Not fear of banning - but exhaustion - the tiresome wrestling with sentences and terminology to stick pedantically within obscure guidelines which seem sometimes applied subjectively. It's not just disallowed words - which is horrifying. Not just a matter of 'incivility' to another poster or a group of people - it's now about not being able to speak the truth.

I am finding this more upsetting than I can say. It's so unfair and so terrifying, the way Orwell is being proved right everywhere we look, the gloating on Twitter, the way some posters are able to speak the most arrant, ill-informed, nonsensical bollocks about trans biology and people are either twisting themselves in knots to reply within guidelines or being deleted for pointing out the truth. Bravo you brave women unafraid to act and to speak up. My adult DD and I are determined to do more from now on.

Please, please let me have a link to 'the other place'. I'm feeling quite distressed by all this this morning.

PurpleCrowbar · 25/06/2018 09:11

I'm with AAK.

The debate is moving mainstream, we aren't going to lose this one (hella nasty backlash coming up for various nice inoffensive people who've been quietly going about their business, though, I fear).

MN have let us down, yes. But by doing so they've peaked an awful lot of people, & sunlight is always the best disinfectant.

I'm on the other place but haven't posted yet - the debate's more effective out here, in the open.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/06/2018 09:14

I'm on the other place but haven't posted yet - the debate's more effective out here, in the open.

Agreed. If the decision has been made to force out critical voices then we're not going to go quietly, and we're going to take as many other women with us as possible. Every thread in which someone is posting outrageous distortions of reality is another opportunity to turn on those lightbulbs over the heads of the undecided.

Ereshkigal · 25/06/2018 09:15

But narc rage was always going to be part of the cycle. Narc rage will be at its worst when it suddenly realises it's beginning to lose ground.

YY. The most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she tries to leave.

Pratchet · 25/06/2018 09:16

The parallel is chilling isn't it

Ereshkigal · 25/06/2018 09:20

Yes.

LangCleg · 25/06/2018 09:20

I'm on the other place but haven't posted yet - the debate's more effective out here, in the open.

MN is very important for consciousness raising (which is why there is such an effort to shut us down and also why we should stay).

Private spaces are better for letting off steam and organising in a way that avoids sabotage.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/06/2018 09:22

YY. The most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she tries to leave.

Actually that raises a good point - women who've been going along with the TRA stuff so far because you didn't want to make friends who're true believers angry, or you didn't want to come across badly, or there's a specific person in your life whose reaction you feared, please know that if any when you're ready to walk away and speak honestly there's a whole group of strong, brave, kind women waiting to catch you. Even if you've clashed with some of us in the past, that might mean having to work through a period of tension as trust is established, but ultimately if you're afraid of falling don't be - there are plenty of women waiting to catch you.

ScaredPAD · 25/06/2018 09:24

Ive only quickly scaned the thread. But where is the other place? Id like to join if its a safe place to talk about feminism without being anxious avout being banned foe using biology.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/06/2018 09:26

Can I have a link to the other place too...? I was hoping to avoid it as barely have time/ energy for mumsnet, but I'm feeling really let down and I want to know what's going on so I can fight against those who want to take away the rights my daughters currently have to safety, dignity and privacy (though it feels like already those rights are far fewer than I had as a young woman).

BeyondFemaleElitist · 25/06/2018 09:29

That £12pp online freedom programme would be so useful to hq.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/06/2018 09:30

Things like finding out about the secretly changed policy of the girl guides are so important to me and I wonder how clearly that awful violation of safeguarding can be described under current talk guidelines. Mumsnet was such a lifeline after DD2 was born. Very sad about what's happening.

TheQueef · 25/06/2018 09:32

I'd appreciate an invite to the other place too please.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/06/2018 09:33

I wonder if TRAs argue with them when they delete things, or say they won't be deleting things. If you're not willing to invest in training for the mods for the sake of the commenters then do it for the mods themselves, HQ, because I'm willing to bet that they're going to receive some epic attempts at gaslighting over the next few weeks/months.

Batteriesallgone · 25/06/2018 09:41

People saying we can still post in the same way - no we can’t. Not really.

I ended up devoted to mumsnet because it was the only place where I could freely discuss how being raped and the trauma of that had deeply impacted my first pregnancy / birth / year with my first child.

I was a total fucking mess. Thankfully I found mumsnet FWR, and Buffy, who helped me beyond measure. I didn’t bury the feelings, I faced them, talked about them, and managed to become the Mum I knew I could be / wanted to be because of mumsnet and the WOMEN here.

Around the same time I found the stately homes threads, and thought through the FOG of my upbringing. Again it was female posters who helped me, because only women really understand. Part of my abuse was related to my female body. I was a child. I couldn’t identify my way out of shit. And I needed to here from other women who had experienced similar.

If the vocal women are removed and replaced with vocal (?*) then that support will also fall away. If the strong angry feminists are removed the rest of us will find it that much harder to reject bullshit and deal with things in a way that gives US happiness, rather than a permissive burying of problems no one else cares about in order to make everyone else happy.

People saying it won’t change the site...it will. Hugely. For those who need it.

Buffy was hounded off years ago. I’m still so sad about that. This has been a long time brewing.

How do people find out about the other place? I assume the information isn’t freely given to resist infiltration?

*deliberately not using a word here so I can’t be pulled up on it

Uyulala · 25/06/2018 09:47

Where is this other place where you can talk freely? I'm on twitter but that's about it, and wouldn't call that free either

ProfessionalBarren · 25/06/2018 09:48

Please can someone DM me a link to the other place? I’m struggling to follow posts here now because people can’t say what they mean. I can’t believe this abuse of language to be honest.

Batteriesallgone · 25/06/2018 09:49

Rereading my post it reads like I know about the other place. I don’t. Would like to though.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 25/06/2018 09:50

Could someone on the other place start a list of quotes of all the posts which get deleted- maybe start a Twitter account and post them on there?
Or a blog post we could link to which quotes all the factual things women can no longer say.
Journalists could see it, and just the general public realising what facts are now being censored would raise the awareness.

If we could do that I think this censorship might actually help. As I think it's the free speech issue which is ultimately going to win this with the general public.

doctorcuntybollocks · 25/06/2018 09:53

I'd also like to know about The Other Place.

BeyondFemaleElitist · 25/06/2018 09:53

Oh and re how long people have been here. Nearly nine years.
From pre conception of dc1, through pregnancy and birth, through (female exclusive - biological elitism...) trauma from first birth and one resulting disability from that, through pregnancy with dc2 and birth, even more disabilities coming from that to the point I was - and am - very ill. Through ongoing mh problems, severe during pregnancy (again, more elitism as female exclusive), through figuring out that asd was the root of much of my mh trouble, and support while investigated for its diagnosis. Through DPs shift work while I was ill, then redundancy and taking on the role as my full time carer. Through relationship trouble largely linked to my health, and various issues with friends and family. Through concerns about the possibility of my children inheriting asd or physical disabilities. Through ongoing support about mh problems, asd and disabilities.

You women have done more for me than you can ever know Flowers

lynmilne65 · 25/06/2018 09:54

Language 😵

QuizteamBleakley · 25/06/2018 09:57

Please can I also have the link to The Other Place. MN has been a lifeline to me over the years but, having publicly delurked here on FWR, I want to use my voice, not be silenced. The erosion of what it means to be a woman, have a period, have a baby, breastfeed, have a cervix, have a hysterectomy can't continue. If the TRAs silence us, my nieces will grow up in a world with lady dicks. Nah, fuck that shit. Definitely not literally.

I want to get involved with enlightening people, raising awareness and I can't do that here if we're banned from speaking biological truths.

PinkAvocado · 25/06/2018 10:04

You’re right, @lynmilne65, it is horrifying how language is being manipulated so that it is now no longer allowed to be factual.