Jenn Smith is a transgender male (born male, expressing fem)

[loveyouradvice]

... I have just discovered them... wonderfully outspoken and clear about needing to protect the rights of women and children in Canada.... and this is how they describe themselves

But this does so expose the challenge of finding a suitable name for transpeople that all can agree on. Let alone which personal pronouns!

At the moment confusion reins - with people new to the debate (like I was just a few months ago) not clear about which sex/gender transmen and transwomen represent as names - what is appropriate to say (or not say) e.g. TIM, MtF, etc.

It is likely that a name will emerge that all can agree on - a compromise I hope without women giving up the name women, for example.

Does anyone have any idea what it might be?

Personally I am in favour of the clarity of Jenn's approach - calling themselves a transgender male, recognising that what they are doing is expanding the bandwidth of what being male is - and believe that if this was consistently used, in time he would no longer need to use the brackets with fuller explanation.

YY Prawn

Jenn Smith refers to themselves as a transgender identified male - are we to be sanctioned for misgendering / misnaming them in order to comply with some arbitrary doublethink that enables bullying of women?

Policing of speech is a very very slippery slope

We're just hopping on to wave TGs - please do keep the debate civil and avoid personal attacks.

Feeling dumb here - what does TG stand for??? Thanks

Its the policing I cant stand. You can call yourself whatever you like. I just dont want to be obliged to accept the terminology. The best I can do out of courtesy (which I can choose to offer or withhold) is to avoid all pronouns and just always use someones name. I vehemently object to legal fudging and legal recognition for anything other than biological reality although I accept, having worked in that field previously, that the law operates very differently to science (science likes a bright line, the law absolutely does not - I think that is why people get confused sometimes).

Talk Guidelines I think

They have written some really interesting pieces,

Jen is an old school transvestite and doesn't appropriate womanhood.

I remember when appropriation was a bad thing, happy days.

I have no idea what that means

Also sisters be careful. I suspect some people use threads like this to force strikes on some of us and myself and others need you to learn from and develop our understanding/argument/resolve.

Snappity

This appears goady to me.

What is goady is you telling women who struggle with fertility, that transwomen who can father children, like Caitlyn Jenner, are, in fact, infertile women and should have the right to a womb implant.

Oo. I've been deleted. My post might not stand but what I said does and the person it was aimed at probably read it and ran to tell teacher. I'm not going on the naughty step.

TG - Talk Guidelines of course! Mumsnet, if you are reading this it would be great if you posted in full rather than initials for those who are not familiar with shortened forms!

spontaneousgiventime

You expressed the collective consciousness of most women here - trolling is despicable

The naughty step was a reference to, quite frankly, the patronising way adult women are being treated. I'm not actually feeling like I am on the naughty step. Far from it.

No prizes for guessing what happened there. They add absolutely nothing to the debate, yet are able to patrol around all the threads throwing out disgusting and offensive comments, reporting left right and centre silencing women.

What I said still stands too. I'll call out bullying when I see it.

womanformallyknownaswoman That poster caused a lot of hurt and upset today. There is the full thread in a PDF in the other place if anyone missed it. They did troll and they caused distress to many women. I am not going onto the naughty step for telling the truth.

Kettlepotblackagain I know what you mean. Sorry for coming across as if I was belittling what you meant, it wasn't intended that way. I'm still very peeved by that thread, it was bone chilling.

I know don't worry Spontaneous, didn't mean to come across harsh just wanted to explain as I can't stand being treated like a child X

Kettlepotblackagain Agree. I hate that I'm either expected to play nice or lie. NO!

Jenn actually changed twitter bio away from 'male to female' after being called on it by feminists. I'm slightly concerned at the follower/followed ratio though. Lecturer rather than listener? Don't know but I agree with much of what Jenn says.

The odd thing about new poster Snappity is whenever a characteristic is required by a poster so that they are supposedly well-placed to argue against the gender critical position, it turns out that Snappity has it!

Either every individual has the right to an inalienable personal identity which is immune to question, or they do not.

Ergo, according to gender identity theology, Jenn Smith has every right to self-define as a trans-identified male.

I honestly don't see what further issue transactivists can possibly have and maintain ideological integrity.

Cripes what did I miss

Pratchet Look on the other place, it's all there.

Sorry, I've de-railed badly. I won't any more.

Could I have a link to the other place? I missed quite a bit too, caught the end of it after the MNHQ notice. What I caught while skimming was as creepy as fook.

Any chance of a link to the other place as well? It sounds fun.