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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nope, never happens

101 replies

sexnotgender · 23/06/2018 11:44

Man admits filming women in nightclub toilets www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-44577119

OP posts:
TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 23/06/2018 17:03

What I was responding to was people saying that self ID is relevant in this specific case. I just don't see that it is. Didn't mean to step on toes.

Self ID is relevant in any case where a man has filmed women in toilets; because allowing Self ID will allow men to get access to women's toilets much easier than if Self ID isn't 'allowed'.

Anyone that thinks 'trans women are women' should also be worried about it; but it seems that some people who do believe that, also think that allowing men into women's toilets is a good thing.

It's fascinating how people who are mainly jumping down women's throats, also do so on threads like this as it shows that they don't really think that 'trans women are women' and automatically assume that women are talking about 'trans women'. That is their assumption to make of course...

TransplantsArePlants · 23/06/2018 17:04

Also never happens that someone who self-Id's gets to win a prize, gain political power, run a race or speak at a conference...

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 23/06/2018 17:04

Whether a male human being is a conventional bloke or one who identifies as a woman makes no difference. Both groups offend at the same rate. A MtF is just as likely to be a rapist as any other male bodied person.

BUT...

That's not how the thread started. Isn't it weird the way Daimbars whisks in to put things in order? Inserting trans into the thread immediately? When, actually, the point is men.

Kettlepotblackagain · 23/06/2018 17:04

Wonder where Daim is? 🤔

TransplantsArePlants · 23/06/2018 17:05

Tells

Yes. It's a bit 'you smelled it you dealt it'

TransplantsArePlants · 23/06/2018 17:17

Random

Some great example here of why the simplistic idea of perpetrators being caught and adequately sentenced doesn't really reassure me. I selected this simply because it's a few threads down on the list from this one

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276137-Slap-on-the-wrists-again-for-abusive-men

I'd much rather
a) women were protected by the law at the outset
b) men were put in the postlight when it comes to being told to 'be nice'

TransplantsArePlants · 23/06/2018 17:17

spotlight, not 'postlight'!!

UpstartCrow · 23/06/2018 17:23

(Police have trouble dealing with something as serious as a grooming gang, apparently from the fear of being labelled racist.
I'm worried that if self ID is introduced, the fear of being labelled transphobic will make them hold back from answering calls to men in womens bathrooms.)

Meanwhile, women still have to deal with this kind of behaviour from men on a regular basis. Covert filming and masturbating is a huge problem in public places.

EmpressOfSpartacus · 23/06/2018 17:29

Transwoman or not, if anyone attacks or harrases women in bathrooms they will be prosecuted.

This of course works both ways: if anyone attacks or harrasses someone in the men's they will be prosecuted too. Which means that no biological male should worry about using the toilet for their sex.

dianebrewster · 23/06/2018 17:29

I'm assuming those who think "it will happen anyway " don't bother locking their door when they go out, or close windows? Burglars will get into houses anyway. (!)

There is no logic to that position - it should be the opposite, we know some men are voyeurs and will go to great lengths to film women in intimate situations. We should not be making it EASIER for them. Self ID will do that

TransplantsArePlants · 23/06/2018 17:35

Empress

Good point

EmpressOfSpartacus · 23/06/2018 17:52

Thanks Transplants.

Only logical after all.

PositivelyPERF · 23/06/2018 17:58

if anyone attacks or harrases women in bathrooms they will be prosecuted

Oh well that’s alright then. I’m sure the victims of male violence will be happy to know that their attacker will be dealt with. OR, radical I know, we don’t make it EASIER for perverts to gain access to female dedicated spaces, therefore not making a woman or child suffer the abuse in the first place.

Ereshkigal · 23/06/2018 17:59

(Police have trouble dealing with something as serious as a grooming gang, apparently from the fear of being labelled racist.
I'm worried that if self ID is introduced, the fear of being labelled transphobic will make them hold back from answering calls to men in womens bathrooms.)

Excellent point.

OlennasWimple · 23/06/2018 18:04

This of course works both ways: if anyone attacks or harrasses someone in the men's they will be prosecuted too. Which means that no biological male should worry about using the toilet for their sex

Indeed

When this paedohpile tried to film a toddler using the gents, he was arrested

This man was jailed for filming other men using the urinals

OlennasWimple · 23/06/2018 18:06

And in case anyone was tempted to brush this sort of covert recording off as just "noises of people weeing", remember that there are people like this chap who filmed people in the toilets but also filmed them in public places like Starbucks then merged the clips together to make them unwitting stars in his own special porn films

Envy
placemats · 23/06/2018 18:07

From the link:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-44577119

Solicitor advocate Jim Laverty, defending, said: "I will be addressing your lordship at the deferred sentence date in relation to the aspect of the sexual element in this case.

"You will be aware that this type of offence covers behaviour which humiliates, distresses or alarms someone.

"I will be trying to convince you this was more of a distasteful behaviour rather than the obvious inference of a sexual element."

Sheriff Tom Hughes deferred sentence for reports and released Anderson on bail.

What is going on here? Is Levon Anderson above the law?

placemats · 23/06/2018 18:10

that's a man not a trans woman

How do you know this daimbars ?

PositivelyPERF · 23/06/2018 18:13

that's a man not a trans woman

Are you just assuming by their appearance? That’s very transphobic of you!

BiologyIsReal · 23/06/2018 18:27

Someone has to be really hard of thinking not to realise

a) that self ID will make it easier for male pervs to enter women's toilets. If their presence is challenged they can simply say I identify as a woman and will have every right to be there. The slightest challenge will be put down as trans phobia.

b) Also hard of thinking not to realise this whole thing is about women's safety and privacy, not whether an individual is trans or not.

Why bring in legislation that potentially reduces the safety and privacy of women? It's insane.

sexnotgender · 23/06/2018 18:29

Hard of thinking or deliberately obtuse and disingenuous.

OP posts:
WanderingWavelet · 23/06/2018 18:30

The other issue which could be a likely unintended consequence of the proposed changes to the GRA Act making self-ID legal is that a woman challenging someone presenting as a man who enters a sex-segregated space could be liable to being prosecuted for hate speech.

So women are in practice silenced because if we challenge the presence of a person who looks like a man in our sex-segregated space, and they claim they are self-identified as a woman, then the woman is in trouble.

If anyone’s seen clips or images of Danielle Muscato , or remembers the people defending the Greens “non-men” debate - a Green Party member who said that s/he “presented as a man but identified as a woman” (I kid you not Confused ) then you’d know that sometimes transwomen really do not pass.

And the proposed changes to the GRA would mean that there would be no need to pass - a man could simply say he identifies as a woman. He wouldn’t have to do anything else.

thebewilderness · 23/06/2018 18:34

I do not know if the voyeur laws will be repealed, or no,t in order to avoid false accusations against transitioners. I do know that the removal of sex as a protected characteristic and the amendment of the GRA to provide for Self ID will mean that men will be able to do boldly in unisex loos what they previously had to sneak to accomplish in sex segregated spaces.