Fiona Broadfoot - The Queen’s endorsement of the exploitation of women is devastating

[Iseveryusernamealreadytaken]

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/06/20/queens-endorsement-exploitation-women-devastating/

The number of female academics on that Southall thread bleating that they are ‘allies to sex workers’ and that #SexWorkIsWork is sickening.

Every moron who says these words should have to go and spend a day as a prostituted woman. Why not? It’s work, after all!

Prostitution does not always need to be around. Cultural attitudes will never be changed with defeatist talk like that.

Murder will always be around.
Drug addiction will always be around.
Rape will always be around.
Doesn't make any if those things ok and doesn't mean society shouldn't do everything possible to minimise the undesirable acts and the consequent harm caused.

I don't find the "prostitution will always be around" argument a particularly compelling reason to take an approach of making it more socially acceptable.

re pole/aerials: I can see how the sense of achievement and rush of pride I feel when I finally achieve a trick or combo that I've been struggling with would be mistaken for "empowerment" by someone who didn't know.the meaning of the word.

Re upthread someone mentioned Liverpool prostitutes: I watched the BBC3 documentary this morning and I can't believe that there are people out there who think that what those women go through is a job. If my working conditions involved being beaten up and ejaculated into, my union would take my employer to the cleaners. Belle du Jour paints such a false picture of prostitution, no mention of that (un)managed zone in Leeds or the women in Liverpool.

So heartening to read that most women on this thread have strong views against prostitution. It’s a fight we should all be taking up. Nordic mode is the only way forward.

Belle de Jour has a lot to answer for by painting a picture of prostitution as a glamorous career choice where you are showered with expensive gifts and money.

Belle de Jour is a nasty piece of work. She's really horrible and dismissive of the women who have exited prostitution and who have far more uncomfortable stories to share than her, and who didn't have her privileged background. She goes out of her way to attack and try to discredit them.The menz love her of course.

Murder will always be around. Police now (hopefully) take things like stalking which can lead to murder more seriously. (They should any way but for the purposes of this argument...)
Drug addiction will always be around. Which is why there are places that do needle exchanges and treat addiction with methadone.
Rape will always be around. Yes. And you can now get kits to test if drinks are spiked, you're advised on how to be safe.

This is not me condoning prostitution. I don't. But I am realistic - prostitutes ate very vulnerable and anything that keeps them safer is a good thing.

On a separate but related note; would prostitution being more acceptable make it easier for women to move out of it? At the moment there is going to be a big gap on their cv. If you can say you were a prostitute at that time you at least have no gap and show that you are willing to work to get money. Of course, it could then leave you open to an unscrupulous boss thinking you are available for anything.

Just a thought (although a hypercritictal one as I don't think we'll ever be at that stage).

"Rape will always be around. Yes. And you can now get kits to test if drinks are spiked, you're advised on how to be safe."

?

The only way to be safe is to never be alone with a rapist, and we can't tell who they are.

The "advice" that women are girls are so kindly given on how to avoid being raped always focus on limiting / restricting her activities, clothes, or berating her for not doing things "right" after the event. The "advice" is more about diverting blame from where it belongs and is an exercise in magical thinking.

It would be better if everyone was advised on basic safety - men are at risk of violence, robberty etc if they get drunk - and not hone in on women and girls with a never-ending, impossible to adhere to in it's entirety (which actually is the whole point) list of "advice".

And in what world can a woman write "2001 - 2007 - prostitute" and her only concern is that an unscrupulous male boss might think to take advantage? Women need to keep this covered up for a variety of reasons and espeically if they are supporting children which is hardly unusual. Women who want to leave often have additional issues like pimp / boyfriend won't let them, financial constraints, drug / alochol addiction issues and so on. I don't think the CV thing is the main issue - lots of women have gaps she could just say children / other caring responsibilities and employer won't bat an eyelid (although many women who have had time out of work / mainstream employment have this issue).

I imagine another option is to put down self employed as something (?) although they may want refernces.

Anyway. I don't think this is the main issue. Women and girls don't tend to enter prostitution unless they are desperate / coerced and by definition options are limited.

Clearly I'm not condoning it. Any of it. But as I live in the real world I try to make improvements where I can.

If you can't fix the cause try to alleviate the symptoms. If you can't stop something happening try to make it as least worse (terrible English!) as you can.

We are clearly not going to see eye to eye on this so j think it's best we end this discussion.

You can fix the cause to an extent.

Study in scotland a few years back found that if men thought there would be conseuqneces for paying for sex - eg family / work finding out, legal ramificaitons, a large number would not do it.

You have a hardcore of men who will do it whatever.
But you have a lot of more ordinary men who will do it if it feels acceptable to do so (you see this on stags and so on) but not if there might be consequences (that are immediately obvious to them).

So that works (if you think reducing demand is a good thing which most of us do).

I know you don't condone it

I definatly do. From the little i know of the nordic model it works well. Just don't want the women to miss out on better protection short term because of long term fixes.

If you can't stop something happening try to make it as least worse (terrible English!) as you can.

I agree with the broad principle of this, but the problem when it comes to prostitution is that full decriminalisation does not reduce harm. Trafficking goes up, sex-buyers demand more for their money, women work in terrible conditions in mega-brothels which now have the gloss of legality so can operate in broad daylight. And of course it can't address the wider harm that teaching men society is happy for them to buy women's bodies causes.

Nordic model (decriminalise selling, criminalise buying, provide exit services) is the best form of harm reduction.

Study in scotland a few years back found that if men thought there would be conseuqneces for paying for sex - eg family / work finding out, legal ramificaitons, a large number would not do it.

It needs to be seen as socially unacceptable. The standard social reaction on hearing about a man using a prostitute should be urgh/loser/saddo.

Spot on, Lass.

Even Belle du Jour mentions at one point how her chemist shopping list contains cystitis treatments and pessaries for vaginal irritation, hinting at the genital injuries incurred during prostitution. At another point, she mentions getting bruises on the backs of her thighs from a client fucking her hard from behind.

Does any actual job involve incurring this kind of injury without some effort to mitigate it? Even ballerinas use stiffened pointe shoes and padding to mitigate foot injury.

A gap on a CV...??!!

Great thread

Re Mipmipmip and SardinesAreYum rape "advice" conversation:

If you're identifiably female, then to a rapist, you're a valid target because you have a vagina that you cannot take off and leave at home for safekeeping. It's not comparable to wearing a rolex where you can hide it to fool a robber into thinking that you left it at home; you cannot hide the existence of your vagina unless you can consistently and convincingly pass as male, including in the loo. Clothing is irrelevant: we know this because a) men manage to contain their sexual urges when surrounded by women in bikinis at the pool, and b) men rape women in burkas and habited nuns.

There are many messages coded in clothing, but sexual consent is not one of them

Bythesea you can laugh at the gap on the cv but it is another thing that makes it harder to get employment. It's difficult enough to get a job without that and one of the reasons people stay in prostitution is that they can't get money any other way. So yes, it is a fact it for some.

Haxxor I have never nor would I ever suggest that clothing causes rape. Men do. All we can do is make it harder for them but if we don't manage it that is not the victim's fault.

What we need is to simultaneously take away the stigma of being a prostitute and increase the stigma of being a punter, pimp etc. I don't know if that is possible. But until that point I support any attempt to make things better for prostitutes. They won't all work but we can't know what the right system is until they gave been tried. And I do believe that they are (at least in the majority and in the cases mentioned) done with good intentions.