Ladyboys of Bangkok - is this now transphobic?

[busyboysmum]

www.brightonfringe.org/whats-on/the-lady-boys-of-bangkok-wonder-women-tour-125151/

So how am I going to talk about the above forthcoming tour given the email I have just received from Mumsnet HQ?

Hi there busyboysmum,

We're just getting in touch to let you know that we've deleted one of your posts on this thread - we felt this section broke our new guidelines:

'Are we still allowed to use "Ladyboys"?'

We know you'll be disappointed with our decision, but while we want to allow everyone to express their opinions on this issue, it's important that the debate remains civil and constructive. We'd be really grateful if you could post within the guidelines from now on.

Best wishes,
Anya,
MNHQ

I think these kinds of shows are a type of drag act, so no, doesn't have much to do with trans issues really?

This is a man's forum talking about whether or not it's transphobic. They seem to conclude that it's not:

community.drownedinsound.com/t/the-ladyboys-of-bangkok/12954/24

Ladyboys are often referred to as the 3rd sex. They are a respected and accepted group.
Ladyboy is the usual descriptor.
Whilst it is fine to have an opinion, I don't think anybody in the UK should be telling anyone else not to use that particular word.

I think MNHQ might want to get out more.

www.ladyboysofbangkok.co.uk/

I've never been as it's not my thing but I'm sure the Ladyboys of Bangkok will be making their usual month long appearance in August at the Edinburgh Fringe as they have done for at least the last quarter of a century.

@endofthelinefinally that's what I thought. I am amazed to receive a strike for asking a question about being able to use a word that the performers in question use to describe themselves.

And indeed they are

Getting silly now mumsnet - this is a self identifying group of transwomen

Ladyboys are not the same as transgender people.
I guess that most of them would be offended if this was assumed by anybody, least of all by westerners.

The clue is in the name
Ladyboys.

That nauseating newspaper article is vomit-inducing. Especially the ridiculous notion that women and girls would be envious of men dressed as women! Why on earth would they be? It would be like a lion being jealous of Jocelyn Wildenstein.

I think if either the Ladyboys stage act or indeed general Thai Ladyboys are happy to be called Ladyboys then it’s fine to use it in those circumstances. I think if it’s been used as a put down name to someone who identifies as a different gender then it’s transphobic.

Wait so all use of the word “ladyboy” is banned? Even if referring to ladyboys - which is the usual accepted English term in Thai culture? I lived in Thailand for a while, I knew a few ladyboys socially, they referred to themselves as ladyboys when talking in English. Many worked as performers or sex workers but some just in shops etc. It’s not drag, which is a temporary persona, it’s who they are, ladyboys usually have surgical breast implants, and sometimes have genital surgery as well. We used female pronouns for them as courtesy. Essentially equivalent to what we in the UK now term transwomen, apart from the ladyboys I knew did not believe they were women. They were ladyboys.

I can understand a deletion for calling a white British transwoman a ladyboy (unless the individual in question refers to themselves by that term) but banning the word altogether is just a bit culturally deaf really. What about Hijra? Or Two-spirit? Or Fa’afafine? Words like ladyboy are not derogatory in and of themselves. They have meaning outside of the context of the clash between the demands of trans activists and the rights of women in the UK.

There are loads of ladyboys, transgender men and women all over the place in Thailand, particularly Bangkok. Nobody cares, nobody bats an eyelid. It just isn't a problem.
That said, I don't know what the deal is wrt prisons or hospitals.
However, health care is expensive and based on the American model, so individual rooms are usual.
I must find out what happens about prisons.

Lastgirlontheleft. I don't think it means they are envious of your average Joe with a beer belly putting a frock on. But you have to admit, the girls/boys in the show are an attractive bunch. I've no problem admiring beautiful women and envying their looks, no shame in it, doesn't mean I want to be them. Just like admiring a man's look, doesn't mean I want to be with him.
You'll probably think that's anti feminist or social conditioning, maybe it is, but that's just the norm for me.

@endofthelinefinally

For a brief moment I thought I would google “ladyboy in Thai prison”. But then decided it wasn’t the best idea!

Indeed NotARegularPenguin. Might be a bit risky

Please look. Up. Articles about the reality of many ladyboys and how they are often sent away from home to earn money for there family and often end up in the sex trade or trafficked. The ladyboys who make it into the international shows are only a very small lucky few who have made a life and even then when they get to old they are soon dropped from these shows.

Ladyboys are not the same as transgender people

What's the difference between a Ladyboy and a trans woman, objectively? Given that a "ladyboy" is usually a post op, full time transexual fully aware that they are not actually female but are feminised as much as they can be.

We seem to be arriving at the point where deciding on whether a comment is transphobic is determined, not by the actual content of the comment, but by who said it.

Orwell would have raised one, or possibly both, eyebrows.

Ladyboys will often not be post op as that is there selling point and when they are post op then they are not as desirable in the sex industry. Many do this to save to money to pay for the operations but it is sometimes a trap that people get stuck in. There is little difference in that or a western trans woman who is in the sex industry due to socioeconomic reasons in this respect

The Thai sex industry is a whole other issue. Lots of underage girls sold or forced by their families to earn money, used and abused by tourists - it is a sad and complex situation.
I don't think those ladyboys in the sex industry have a monopoly on exploitation and abuse.
But not all ladyboys are in the sex trade, there are many in show biz and fashion/beauty/modelling business.
There are many trans people in "ordinary" jobs too and IME they are accepted without comment.
I can only speak from my observation though.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/thailands-transgender-inmates-offered-separate-detention-still-craving-hormones/2017/03/15/05e4b3fe-0444-11e7-ad5b-d22680e18d10_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.afd96ef03554

Not a problem to google

So how am I going to talk about the above forthcoming tour given the email I have just received from Mumsnet HQ?

Did you actually want to talk about their tour?

Well the point was that I asked if the term ladyboys was banned. My post got deleted. My other deletion was for saying "yawn". I just don't think either post was worthy of deletion but now I have 2 strikes. Yet everyone in the thread above has used the term "ladyboys" without being deleted. So it just seems a little confusing and inconsistent to me.