Ladyboys of Bangkok - is this now transphobic?

[busyboysmum]

www.brightonfringe.org/whats-on/the-lady-boys-of-bangkok-wonder-women-tour-125151/

So how am I going to talk about the above forthcoming tour given the email I have just received from Mumsnet HQ?

Hi there busyboysmum,

We're just getting in touch to let you know that we've deleted one of your posts on this thread - we felt this section broke our new guidelines:

'Are we still allowed to use "Ladyboys"?'

We know you'll be disappointed with our decision, but while we want to allow everyone to express their opinions on this issue, it's important that the debate remains civil and constructive. We'd be really grateful if you could post within the guidelines from now on.

Best wishes,
Anya,
MNHQ

@lass yes I was then going to start a thread about the upcoming tour to discuss whether or not the ladyboys were considered transphobic as indeed drag acts seem to be. It's like if things offend women carry on but once men find them offensive then action is taken.

I don't agree with the new rules, but if MN bring them in then they have to (a) not keep moving the goalposts without telling us in advance (e.g. ldb*ys) and (b) apply them equally to all posters.

Well the point was that I asked if the term ladyboys was banned. My post got deleted.

There is a world of difference between someone using a term to describe themselves and someone else using the term as an insult. So yes clearly, CLEARLY it is fine for you to refer to this show by its title. But it would not be okay for you to refer to trans women not affiliated with the show as ladyboys. Surely you get this?

Where are people getting the idea that the Ladyboys of Bangkok are drag queens? Pretty sure most, if not all, of the cast would be considered trans.

Is it not ever thus with any kind of discrimatory offensive language?

“Shut up bitch”
Two female friends joking together = ok
Man harassing woman in Street = not ok

I meant street, as in in general, not the town in Somerset

Maybe because of the stage shows? People might be interpreting "drag" to just mean any guy who goes onstage with glamorous costumes and makeup, performing a feminine role in cabaret style shows? Only my guess tho'.

I suppose it is context- had you started a thread in AIBU or Scotsnet for example saying
you must see this - they are touring all over Scotland this summer. I saw them in Edinburgh last year and they were great I can't see anything to object to.

But if you had up until now shown no interest in this type of performer I suppose it might seem a little questionable.

I really don't think it's MNHQs place to decide what terms should apply to trans people in totally different cultures that have had their own terms for centuries. Bit of an overreach, that.

I think it is clear that they dont know anything about ladyboys in Thailand.

Yes Angry Kittens I think Anya MNHQ has rather primly demonstrated she had no idea what the subject matter was.

My eldest (18) is only allowed to say swear words around me if it’s a quote, a title or a song lyric.

I reckon similar applies here. If it’s the title of a well-known performance troupe and is appropriately capitalised, surely it’s acceptable?

X post. I'm going to get deleted aren't I?

It's not anything resembling a swear word though, it's a generally accepted term that the people it refers to use to describe themselves in everyday conversation. I'd tend to use khathoey because I've spent enough time around Thai people to be more used to that term, but ladyboy is the term generally used when speaking to people who don't speak Thai and who it's assumed wouldn't know the Thai version. It's not offensive, or intended to offend. It's a "third gender" category that's existed since long before there was any discussion about trans issues in the UK.

Attempts to impose current Western queer theory based ideas about how this stuff works on other cultures that sorted out how they're going to talk about it centuries ago do not come across as nearly as woke as the people making them would like to think.

I think we could learn something from the idea of a third gender, that would completely solve the current issues regarding the removal of women's definition and rights wouldn't it?

My experience with the Thai model suggests that it causes a whole lot less social strife.

Makes sense and more like the honour system that was in operation in the UK until the weird and insidious transactivism charade decided science was no longer of any use to us and we must be all legally obligated to lie from now on.

No Lichtie I completely get your POV! I love looking at beautiful women - I don't feel jealousy as I had my time in the sun (bighead me😝) but I do think gorgeous women are magnetic. I just don't see why women would be envious of pretend women.

Someone could correct me here but isn't it akin to the theory of St Anselm? That God exists because He is perfect? If He wasn't perfect, He wouldn't exist? So something that exists is superior to that which is the pretend, the make believe.

I agree I love to look at beauty in any form. It inspires me doesn't make me jealous.

My experience with the Thai model suggests that it causes a whole lot less social strife.

Unless you’re gay, my experience was that ladyboys were completely accepted, but homosexuality was completely taboo.

Homosexuality is gradually being accepted. People find ways round it and discretion is key.