Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

If this went ahead (I do hope not) it would be a matter of months before acronym said well under the previous system it was only two years, why not just make it two again?
Then a year later, oh this is a drag, let's just have self id. No wait period. Aaaaand we end up back here again.
No no no no

Thanks for the tip, I will check it out. I know Wikipedia is hardly infallible. What I was trying to say was that the debate in 2004 was nothing like what it is today. While there may have been dissenting voices, they were nothing like as strong or as mainstream as today’s voices.

This is just another proposal that requires women and girls to give ground, budge over, make room.

The answer's no.

No is a complete sentence and that's my answer. No debate, no reason why, just no. I'm tired of explaining.

Article from the Guardian 2013, its really worth reading as it describes the context in which 'Press for Change' started:

(extract)
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says [Christine] Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues." continues

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Lily Madigan is a good example to use. I wouldn't have voted for her myself but I don't have a problem with a trans women being democratically elected into a women only post - that's the whole point of democracy. Sometimes people you like get elected and sometimes they don't.

I also think that transsexual women will eventually experience what it feels like to be a woman in a pretty much the same way we do. The hormones, surgery and female socialisation will allow this. Apparently trans women even get PMS symptoms.

But I don't think this can happen overnight and I don't think Lily Madigan should have been eligible for the role of women's officer when she's barely even had a chance to experience womanhood.

Thanks R0wantrees that is a very interesting article.

Why can't you grasp this? It's not about what someone has to do before they can join the club. It's not a club. A male can not become female. There's no waiting period, no hoops to jump through, nothing to self declare.

This.

Daim (my autocorrect keeps changing that to FAIL, funnily enough), there is no 'feels like a woman'. We aren't the Borg...we are all different and individual and I am sick of certain men going on and on about feelings all the time when they refuse to acknowledge biology - the root of women's oppression!

Lily Madigan will never "experience womanhood". Stop this shite now, please, it's tedious bollocks. Nothing more.

I'm under the impression Lily Madigan was appointed rather than elected, anyone know?

Sadly newbie I believe there was an election

Newbie - LM put themselves forward for election; were accepted onto the ballot paper; and beat two others (IIRC) in an election, albeit one that had very few votes cast

Thanks @R0wantrees for the article, really interesting and really sad it was published in 2013 before the TRAs came along. The last quote is particularly poignant .

There will always be a great deal of prejudice but I do think things are getting a lot better, and trans people are also getting a lot better," she smiles. "Transsexuals are famous for their sense of humour, their gentleness, their kindness and being nice people because they've been through an awful lot. It's a terrible ordeal to go through to have a sex change. People don't do it willy-nilly. It makes you humble.

Its an important article daims, there is a lot in it that deserves consideration.

The problem is, Daim, that the majority of LP meetings take place in the evenings, and a lot of women have childcare/elder care commitments at that time. This makes it jolly hard for women to get there in order to be able to vote for their choice of women’s officer.

There is no alternative way to vote on these positions, so it’s not a very good example of democracy in action.

No, I wouldn't support the suggestion in the OP, or any self-id, or changing of sex recorded on birth certificate or medical records.

daim how can transwomen possibly experience PMS symptoms???

They don't have the internal organs, tissues or fluctuating hormones to have any kind of biological cycle!

apparently trans women even get PMS symptoms.

Daim. Please. I find it difficult to believe that you would give this any credence whatsoever. TW do not menstruate and therefore have no experience of PMS. I find this appallingly appropriative. Some women lose several months a year to premenstrual ill health in its most extreme awfulness. This happens because they are female. It never happens to TW.

apparently trans women even get PMS symptoms.

FFS!

No.

The question fundamentally is whether a man spends any time in a female body with all the oppression that entails. We know the answer to that question. Men don't spend a single second in a female body and therefore cannot understand the needs we have.

They suffer adverse effects from the drug regime, possibly

OP has well and truly drunk the kool aid

Puppy dog eyes have very little impact on me in this debate, Daim.

Daim, have you ever seen the episode of Happy Days where Fonzie jumps over the shark?

If not, you should watch it. I think you could identify as him.