Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

"Apartheid to provide targeted services to meet their needs? How is it any more Apartheid than 'relegating' women to female spaces?"

But it is not about meeting the needs of trans people, is it? It is about denying rights to a group of women who don't meet your biological ideal.

Segregation is segregation. It is ugly. Always.

But the whole point is that the sexes are segregated, so you obviously don't think it's always ugly.
Look, I am happy to discuss this if you are willing to debate it but if you're just going write trolly one-liners about Apartheid, it's not going to work, is it? For anything meaningful to happen, women need to show empathy to trans people and trans people need to show empathy to women.

What is wrong with providing more specifically targeted services for trans people rather than just throwing them to the wolves and expecting them to fit in with a group that does not share the same experiences of them?

It is about denying rights to a group of women who don't meet your biological ideal

What ideal is that then? Biology is fact. Not a feeling.

Biological ideal.

Oh snappity. That one again huh?

But it is not about meeting the needs of trans people, is it? It is about denying rights to a group of women who don't meet your biological ideal.

What right is being denied by retaining a small number of single-sex provisions for natal females while giving targeted specific services to trans women and trans men? It's not about biological ideals- it's about meeting needs and ensuring privacy and dignity. But if you can point me to a specific right that is denied, let me know.

Biological ideal

There's me thinking my biology is why and how I pushed out four kids not how I got my eyebrows plucked.

Why should a woman be expected to use a man's facility?

Did you not read what I said. I am saying that trans women should NOT be expected to use a man's facility and that there should be appropriate provision for facilities that they can use along with natal men, natal women and non-binary people. Have you not considered the needs of those who are non-binary and don't feel particularly comfortable with single sex spaces? What about them?

a gradual change whereby unisex but private spaces become more commonplace

I want more single sex spaces, not less. I want the trend of mixing the sexes to do a U turn. I don't want to lose single sex spaces so that a handful of people who want to use the opposite sex's facilities feel more comfortable.

What right is being denied by retaining a small number of single-sex provisions for natal females

Why aim so low for women? We need a huge increase in facilities for women. Not just a 'small number'.

I want more single sex spaces, not less. I want the trend of mixing the sexes to do a U turn. I don't want to lose single sex spaces so that a handful of people who want to use the opposite sex's facilities feel more comfortable.

More single-sex spaces? What sort of things? I think sex segregation other than where needed such as changing rooms or medical facilities is quite regressive. I don't think single sex education is great for instance. I think constant reinforcement that men and women are fundamentally different isn't helpful. Interestingly, countries that are considered much more equal and progressive, such as Sweden, have a tendency against sex segregation other than where necessary.

Interestingly, countries that are considered much more equal and progressive, such as Sweden, have a tendency against sex segregation other than where necessary.

In Sweden you are more likely to be told that no men are allowed in a feminist space than in the UK.

Why aim so low for women? We need a huge increase in facilities for women.

I don't think we do. Why should me being a woman dictate what activities I partake in, where I attend school, what subjects I study etc? We used to do that and we weren't a particularly equal society at all. What facilities are there that are unisex now but you feel should be single sex?

But the whole point is that the sexes are segregated, so you obviously don't think it's always ugly.

Good point. The disingenuousness of this debate is quite something.

I want more single sex spaces, not less. I want the trend of mixing the sexes to do a U turn. I don't want to lose single sex spaces so that a handful of people who want to use the opposite sex's facilities feel more comfortable.

I agree. Women make up around 51% of the population and we deserve t have access to single sex spaces where and when we need them.

People who present as the opposite to their birth sex are tiny in numbers is comparison to those of us who present as our birth sex. Therefore reducing the numbers of single sex spaces will make those who present as our birth sex discriminated against. For women that will add to the oppression we already face due to being biological women.

In Sweden you are more likely to be told that no men are allowed in a feminist space than in the UK

Really? What do you base that on?

Therefore reducing the numbers of single sex spaces will make those who present as our birth sex discriminated against.

Which I am not suggesting actually. I am suggesting retaining them and providing unisex spaces and facilities alongside. I think that is what betty means too.

But I don't think we should have a move towards more sex segregation like making single sex schools the norm again or by insisting on segregating where there is no objective reason to do so. I can't see how it will help break down gendered stereotypes and perceptions that there is a fundamental difference between men and women.

PeakPants - But I don't think we should have a move towards more sex segregation like making single sex schools the norm again or by insisting on segregating where there is no objective reason to do so.

Who decides where the cut should come?

I think we do need more segregated spaces, lots more. Many women can't use mixed spaces for religious or cultural reasons. Many women can't use mixed spaces due to male violence that has them afraid around men. Women need more sex segregated spaces because they are places where we are safest. Mixed spaces are not as safe as sex segregated.

Which I am not suggesting actually. I am suggesting retaining them and providing unisex spaces and facilities alongside.

You seem to be suggesting that we don't fight self id, but fight for new additional unisex facilities? How does that keep the women's spaces female only?

What facilities are there that are unisex now but you feel should be single sex?

More toilets are becoming unisex. I want more single sex provision - and lots more toilets for women to lessen the ridiculous queues women have.

Currently anything 'for women' is specifically targeted by males and have started to include them under pressure.

I can't be bothered to list them.

And aside from the 'privacy, dignity, safety' considerations, until women have achieved genuine equality with men, women-only projects and facilities are vital for giving women respite from male domination, challenging internalised misogyny and self-doubt and unleashing frustrated female potential.

What do you base that on?
Experience

Experience

Same here. I guess our experiences are different in this case.

Same here. I guess our experiences are different in this case

Please let me know where all these women-only feminist spaces are in the UK!