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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you back self ID if...

999 replies

daimbars · 19/06/2018 15:08

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

OP posts:
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FermatsTheorem · 21/06/2018 18:24

And fuckit I still hate my phone's autocorrect.

Pratchet · 21/06/2018 18:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigal · 21/06/2018 18:29

If I were the Devil I'd ask for my money back.

massivelyouting · 21/06/2018 18:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OlennasWimple · 21/06/2018 18:30

I like arguments being challenged, daim, but with actual cohesive arguments in response. Not with mis-information that verges on outright lies

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:32

eresh

Grin

It was the 'making the debate interesting' that i thought was ironic

Pratchet · 21/06/2018 18:32

Ireland

I prefer not to shrug my shoulders about disabled people losing the toilets they fought for. When [acronym] are not in danger in the men's.

Ereshkigal · 21/06/2018 18:38

It was the 'making the debate interesting' that i thought was ironic

Quite Smile

massivelyouting · 21/06/2018 18:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/06/2018 18:46

So Daim is now annoying even people on their side of the debate?

I agree with Eresh, the Devil deserves a refund.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:49

You should post in good faith, everyone should

Excellent point, i quite agree

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:50

Oh sorry massively

I should also say I agree completely with your post aboit the disabled loo

Ereshkigal · 21/06/2018 18:51

Massively

I don't have any problem with you. We don't agree on this issue maybe but you have thought about it and reached your own position. I have no problem discussing things with people I disagree with.

BettyDuMonde · 21/06/2018 18:55

At the start of this thread I was kinda open to negotiation, but a couple of days have gone by and I’ve done lots of reading, lots of thinking, and lots of posting on here.

I’ve been outside for the last couple of hours, the weather is nice and I am trying to vent a tumble dryer by drilling and chiselling a brick out of the back wall. It’s what we refer to in this house as ‘magical lady time’ which is the part of my cycle when testosterone is highest and I am able to prune 30ft trees and lift heavy weights at the gym.

Anyway, it occurs to me that the reason I have, up til now, been very sympathetic to the trans cause, and been willing to look for some kind of middle ground, is because I have been thinking of the wonderful transfolk in my life, and how they pose no danger to me nor my children, and how the absolute last thing I would want is for them to have harder lives than they do already.

I haven’t posted anything gender critical on my social media, because I wouldn’t want to upset any of them (although I have commented on posts made by real life GC friends).

This afternoon I’ve concluded that I’ve got to stop thinking this way.

It’s not about MY trans friends, it’s not about MY comfort.

My trans friends are kind, thoughtful, quiet, attempting to fly under the radar, not trying to break down barriers and insert themselves into spaces they know are not their spaces.

I’m a weightlifting, brick removing, tree pruning, able bodied, educated, heterosexual, married woman who isn’t at risk of homelessness, drug addiction or domestic violence.

But, as we know NATALT, and lots of women are far more vulnerable than me.

So, no.

No to Self ID that allows you to co opt the legal designation of ‘woman’ or ‘female’
No to accessing ANY of the places or positions allocated only for women.
No changing birth records, no hiding of criminal pasts.
No to competing in women’s sports.
No standing on AWSL
No affecting women’s statististics
No policing of the language women use to describe their own bodies and their own experiences.
No to conflating sex and gender,.

No negotiating.

However - yes to Self ID that gives you legal protection for your adopted gender and gender presentation - no need for a medical diagnosis, it can be like deedpoll.

Yes to a selection of theoretical genders to chose from (none of which can be named man/woman/girl/boy/male/female - these terms are to be used to describe biological sex alone)

Yes to gender protections against discrimination, in the workplace, in housing, in healthcare.

yes to exemptions that allow for those with the legally registered characteristic of adopted gender to provide services and spaces that exclude people who do not share the self id’d legal characteristic of adopted gender. Yes to sports and facilities for adopted gender people as well as access to single sex spaces based on your biological sex.

Yes to schemes that work towards proportional representation for adopted gender people in public office,

Yes to safe, secure, appropriate spaces for adopted gender people in the prison system.

Yes to statutory time off work for health care appointments that relate directly to your adopted gender needs (although the self ID system will mean some adopted gender people will not be attending specific healthcare appointments. Those that are can prove their entitlement by doctors certification (which is how pregnant women prove entitlement to maternity protections).

Current Gender Recognition Certificate holders could choose to retain their current legal status for life or transfer to the new protected characteristic of adopted gender, depending on their personal preference. No more GRCs to be issued.

....

Basically, separate sex and gender completely - protect both against discrimination, but sex remains forever as observed at birth (with the current extra time for doctors to diagnose intersex conditions prior to registering the birth retained).

Everyone has the protected characteristic of sex, gender is an optional extra with minimum gate keeping that adults can sign up to just prior to turning 18 (so when you sign up to vote).

Have I missed anything?

massivelyouting · 21/06/2018 18:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fairenuff · 21/06/2018 18:59

surely a debate is only interesting if your opinions are challenged?

Debating with you is boring though. Repetitive and dull. Sorry, just my opinion. No need to try and challenge it.

Italiangreyhound · 21/06/2018 19:12

@FermatsTheorem excellent post.

PeakPants · 21/06/2018 19:13

Pratchet, sorry I did not realise that you lived/had connections to Ireland. I don't actually know- I am just going on the information we get told in the media and on here, that it works OK in Ireland because they retain sex segregation. If it is not actually working in Ireland, that is very interesting and I would hope that much more information about it could become available, even if just anecdotes, because it gives some teeth to the fight over here.

I did just see the Amy Desir petition on twitter actually retweeted by someone I know who I would not expect to be fighting for this (gay man and LGBT spokesperson). I know it has done the rounds on here but if anyone hasn't signed it, here it is again: t.co/YWHC86KOCr

I should also clarify for the umpteenth time that I am not 'pro' self-ID. I am pro whatever is going to work to protect women's spaces but my faith is ebbing away. It probably will take something extreme to change political minds.

PeakPants · 21/06/2018 19:15

Daim, you're just being a dick and wasting people's time to be honest. I really do not mind opposing views, but when you say you're just winding people up to play Devil's advocate, that's out of order given the emotional and time investment that many have in this forum.

massivelyouting · 21/06/2018 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UpstartCrow · 21/06/2018 19:17

At what point does The Devils Advocate Game become abuse?
Is it on the 10th repetition, or the 100th?

AngryAttackKittens · 21/06/2018 19:19

I feel you, Betty. I've spent time in Thailand and was initially inclined to try to find some compromise on the basis of feeling perfectly comfortable around khathoey and not really minding their presence in women's toilets and even some changing rooms. Then I realized that a. even if I'm not uncomfortable that doesn't give me the right to overrule the women who are and b. the group of people I knew as khathoey do have an equivalent in the UK, US, etc, and it's the group of people who trans activists call "truscum" and bully almost as much as they do women. The people making all the shouty demands and rape/death threats on Twitter and so on? Nothing like khathoey, totally different group. And if that group continue with the crap they've been pulling then they're going to ruin things for the khathoey-type group, who women have generally been willing to accommodate up until now.

It's always useful to ask the "who benefits?" question, and it's particularly illuminating in this case.

Pratchet · 21/06/2018 19:20

Peak: I don't have connections to Ireland.

daimbars · 21/06/2018 19:22

I'm not meaning to be abusive or offensive so apologies if it comes across like that. I genuinely am unsure where my loyalties lie with this one. I am a woman and want to make sure I'm doing my bit to support women but I'm also a big advocate of LGBT equality.

OP posts:
PeakPants · 21/06/2018 19:22

What will change political minds, sadly, is the case that it's going to take. The sad case the terrible case the awful case that will put it front and centre

Yup, agree.

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