Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

"PeakPants 'Ah okay. I think the difference Italian is that you are talking about what should ideally happen, which I agree with. I don’t think birth certificates should be altered either.' Yes we are agreeing on a lot lately!

'I am referring to what is happening now and will continue to happen which is that ID can be changed quite easily and birth certificates can be changed too.'Only if people can change their birth certificate under a new looser grip on reality version of the GRA!

'In the current position, the only way you will get an inkling that someone is trans (if they have changed their ID) is through sight. No way around it.' That's looking at the problem from the wrong end. Knowing someone is trans or rather knowing someone is male is not the issue.

Knowing someone is male and should not be in the female ward of a hospital, in a prison, in a women's sports team is something where if we can prove that person is not a natal female they should not be in that place. And the equalities act should protect females in these situations.

I am happy to keep talking and arguing about toilets but that is not my main concern. If a person walks into a public toilet, I, and no one else, knows who they are, their name etc. However, in a prison, domestic abuse refuge, sports team or shelter for vulnerable women it should be possible to know who people are. And in these places it should be possible to maintain female only spaces.

'I don’t think it’s good but it is what it is.' It does not have to be this way. Only if women and others who share concerns buy into the idea there is nothing that can be done.

but it still comes back to the TRAs, I still can't see how they have suddenly become the primary threat to women? Nobody is taking them seriously? The one proposal put to parliament by a transgender organisation was rejected?

The Goverment have adopted their demands as the policy basis for a review. The other three main political parties similarly. Organisations large and small nationwide (and internationally) have adopted informal self-ID as their daily practise.

In what way do you not think “nobody is taking them seriously”?!

The only people who seem to take the TRAs seriously and share the stuff they say are GC Feminists. Why are you giving the impression these people have such power?

People are going to stop bothering to debate with you if you ignore everything they say.

Why bother asking questions if you're not prepared to listen to the answers.

I think you are obsessed with TRAs tbh.

daim - that's simply not true (and I think you know it)

Why have schools decided that it's OK for boys to use the girls changing room if they declare that they are girls really, and push girls who are unhappy getting undressed in front of their male peers into using the toilets instead?

Why do MPs shrug off concerns from women as simply being nasty bigots?

Why do big companies suddenly start letting men into changing rooms previously segregated by sex?

Why does Twitter ban GC feminists who say things like "women don't have dicks" but take no action against TRAs who threaten violence and rape?

Why does the Labour party take disciplinary action against GC feminists but allow schemes designed to correct the current imbalance between male and female representation to be accessed by men?

Why does the Girl Guides accept boys, and suggest that girls shoudl leave the organisation if they don't like it?

Why did Swim England say that women and girls who didn't want to be naked in front of men would need "re-educating"?

Who has pushed this stuff so far up the agenda that it's actually impacting women and girls right here and now? Clue - it ain't saddos with a Twitter account with one follower

The extremists are trying to drive the legislative agenda, and they are being listened to by government. This is not our imagination, this is documented in official sources.

Action for Trans Health, for instance, are one of the organisations credited in Maria Miller's report on the Parliamentary Select Committee. At the same time she dismissed women with concerns as "so-called feminists" and ignored the concerns raised by the professional body of psychologists who deal with offenders in prison.

It's still a no from me.

It's us who can't believe what is happening! We can't believe how much the TRAs and organisations such as Stonewall are being listened to by those in power.

Don't make out we are the ones making a fuss out of nothing! We are the ones searching for sanity in this madness!!

@daimbars if you do not think society is being influenced by TRAs, you must be living on a dessert island!

Yes. And it's still a no from me, too.

If this ridiculous gaslighting wasn't so desperate, I'd have some stronger things to say. But I CBA.

Why have schools decided that it's OK for boys to use the girls changing room if they declare that they are girls really, and push girls who are unhappy getting undressed in front of their male peers into using the toilets instead?

Apart from they're not. This is copied directly from the Mermaids trans inclusion toolkit:

Any pupil or student who has a need or desire for increased privacy, regardless of the underlying reason, should be provided with a reasonable alternative changing area, such as the use of a private area (eg a nearby toilet stall with a door, an area separated by a curtain, or a nearby office), or with a separate time to change (e.g. using the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity before or after other students).

Why do MPs shrug off concerns from women as simply being nasty bigots?

Because a lot of misinformation is being spread. See above.

Why do big companies suddenly start letting men into changing rooms previously segregated by sex?

This has been legally happening since the GRA was passed in 2004.

Why does Twitter ban GC feminists who say things like "women don't have dicks" but take no action against TRAs who threaten violence and rape?

Back to the TRAs again, I have no idea. They are both pretty unsavoury and should both be banned imo.

Why does the Labour party take disciplinary action against GC feminists but allow schemes designed to correct the current imbalance between male and female representation to be accessed by men?

If you are referring to Lily Madigan she was democratically elected.

Why does the Girl Guides accept boys, and suggest that girls shoudl leave the organisation if they don't like it?

Probably the same reasons the scouts accepts girls. Inclusion.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Under the EA a person only has to say they are proposing to go down the route of gender reassignment and they can potentially access the spaces of the gender they are reassigning themselves as.

No, we are not already there but there certainly are a lot of people claiming that we are.
There is a thread, more than one, discussing the EA exemptions for sex segregated spaces.
This claim that Self ID is a done deal because people are violating the EA law by failing to provide for the protected category of sex because a lobbyist organization told them gender means sex and gender reassignment trumps sex is bullshit.
We do not stop reporting and discussing violations of the law because people are breaking the law. That is absurd.

Your pants are on fire, Daimbars.

If this ridiculous gaslighting wasn't so desperate, I'd have some stronger things to say. But I CBA.

I second that emotion

probably the same reasons the scouts accepts girls. Inclusion

Thats not why scouts accepts girls

fuck it daim. I can't tell if you really believe this crap or if you just enjoy peddling it about for laughs

Great post, Fermats. Round of applause.

@Pratchet 'We don't enforce boundaries by removing them. Every ground we give is not enough and will never be enough. You want to give ground on this, they'll want more.'

This is so true.

@PeakPant 'No, I am coming from a place where it HAS already happened, is happening now.
On a practical level, what would you do?'

We argue for male, female and gender neutral toilets in all places. 'Gender neutral' already exists almost everywhere' except they are currently called disability access toilets and often have a baby change in them.

Once there is a safe space for all trans and non-binary usage, and any males or females who want it, there is no reason to use the female loos if you are not female.

You can bet your bottom dollar that natal females will use the gender neutral toilets too, if they have full length enclosed doors/walls and sinks and bins.

Slowly we could return to the idea that being female is a group and if the law requires only females to use these female loos (under the sex category of the GRA) then there would be no reason for male born people to use them.

I really think it is a case of 'if you build it they will come'.

At the moment, with no mass gender neutral option, it is harder to enshrine in law that gender non-confirming males should stay out of female spaces.

"Why the defeatism from you and peak?"

Sadly, I do think peak feels if they nag us enough about how it is never going to happen, then it won't!

Peak is wrong.

Knowing that Some of the fuckers want to bomb us has only made me more determined!

@OlennasWimple yep I could be playing Devil's advocate, surely a debate is only interesting if your opinions are challenged?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto/amp

For the benefit of any lurkers, this is the Action for Trans Health "manifesto". Please read it and ask yourself why Maria Miller MP is choosing to listen to them rather than the professional body of psychologists who deal with offenders in prison.

Also ask why professional bodies are handing out guidance to schools which says that if girls are uncomfortable with boys in their toilets, the girls are the ones guilty of transphobeic bullying and are the ones who should be segregated.

Ask why a convicted rapist (rape being a crime in UK law which specifically involves penetration using a penis) has had to be moved from a women's prison for having sex with other inmates.

Then ask yourself whether the claim that the extremists are not driving changes in professional practice and in proposals to enshrine this in legislation is a claim which can be justified or whether that claim is in fact a complete load of self-service, gaslighting, mendacious bollocks.

Massively outing: there is already anger about this in Ireland.