Ministry of Justice being sued by a transwoman

[Easypeasy5]

Interesting article about date being set for transwoman suing the Ministry of Justice which is due to be heard in September. You may have already heard about the case earlier in the year but there is a local news article and a version in pink news depending on which publication you would rather read

The full article is at

www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/transgender-woman-bath-sues-ministry-1109115

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/12/transgender-prisoner-tara-hudson-ministry-of-justice-discrimination-trial/

but one of the lines in it says:

“Lawyers for the MoJ and government said Miss Hudson “is a matter of biological fact a man” and that being a “transwoman” has no legal significance.”

Will be interesting to see what the outcome is

Seems to me like the prison staff came up with an entirely practical solution for searching Hudson’s unusual physique?

"This prompted a national outcry as more than 150,000 people signed a petition in just seven days calling for Miss Hudson to be moved to a female prison."

This is going to be used as proof that the public is behind this. I know several people who signed assuming that Tara was transexual, had meaningful surgery and didn't know that they were found guilty of a violent crime.

Yes, I was one of those who signed in ignorance. Never again. TH should have been housed somewhere safely but not at the expense of the safety and dignity of female prisoners. Women's prison's shouldn't be dumping grounds for the failures of the men's prison estate to deal with bullying and violence.

Will be watching the development of this case with interest.

I was having trouble believing the '7 inch surprise' quote, so did some Googling. Found this tweet from 2015 in response to a Jane Fae article in the New Statesman -

twitter.com/WomenCanSee/status/659918109516533760

She seems to go by `Dannii Dixon’ at the moment.

Surely ‘Dixon’ isn’t an accident? DIX ON?

I'm another one who signed the petition, because I believed that TH had undergone full surgery and genuinely lived as a woman. Never again though.
My position now is that no one convicted of sexual or violent offences against women and/or children should be considered for transfer to a woman's prison, nor should they be allowed to transition in prison.
I'm not sure how I feel about prisoners with a GRC, I suppose there may be the odd transgender prisoner who is no risk to anyone, male or female. I can see that they coupd be at risk in a specialised transgender unit , which is probably the most sensible solution.

Recent article:
'As more trans women who were convicted as men hope to follow rapist Martin Ponting into female wings, prison governors fear vulnerable inmates could be attacked'
(extract)
"Prison governors warned last night that transferring sex offenders who are born male but believe they are female into women’s jails could lead to vulnerable inmates being attacked.

The jail chiefs spoke out following Theresa May’s pledge last year to make it simpler to change gender, and to ‘streamline and demedicalise’ the process.

Transgender activists are demanding a change in the law so that anyone can do this simply by announcing they ‘self-identify’ as a member of the opposite sex.

But one governor, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: ‘My fear is that this could make it much harder to control the transfer of born-male, transgender prisoners to women’s prisons.

‘This could lead to vulnerable women being intimidated – and even attacked.’

The warning came as the Ministry of Justice confirmed that dozens of ‘trans-identified male’ prisoners are living as women in jails exclusively housing convicted sex offenders.

The figures, which emerged in new Freedom of Information Act disclosures, show:

At least 34 male-born inmates are living as women in four specialist sex offender jails for men – Littlehey, Isle of Wight, Whatton and Stafford;
A further ten prisoners may be housed at sex offender prisons Bure, Rye Hill and Ashfield;
Governors of sex offender prisons say ‘all or most’ of their transgender inmates are seeking to move to women’s jails;
In at least one prison, this group includes a prisoner convicted of multiple, separate rapes..." continues

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Fairplay for Women's page re prisons:

"If government reforms of the Gender Recognition Act are made law it will have dangerous consequences within the UK prison service. Self-identification of legal gender will mean any male prisoner will be able to change his legal sex to female and become eligible for transfer into a women’s prison. "
[there are a number of articles linked from this page]

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-uk-prisons/

And the Freedom of Information request that confirmed Fair Play for Women’s own research.

Around half of all transgender prisoners are held in maximum security or specialist sex offender units.

fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

recent threads discussing female prison estates:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269144-Prison-Governors-speak-directly-of-their-concerns-for-vulnerable-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225546-Self-ID-and-womens-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3273582-Sadistic-killer-who-was-born-a-man-but-sent-to-a-female-prison-for-murder-only-to-be-moved-for-sleeping-with-inmate-is-set-for-20-000-sex-change-operation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266960-Daily-Mail-new-story

The report unearthed by BettyDuMonde is interesting.

It's written in April 2017 by Clinks, which advocates for prisoners and their families.

“Clinks is concerned that, by requiring individuals to provide evidence of their gender identity, the processes outlined in the PSI have the potential to exclude a range of people who identify as transgender. The more flexible approach implied in the report’s underlying principles, which emphasise individual self-identification, may provide a more inclusive and person-centred basis for decision-making processes.”

Yet another example of how civil society organizations have been working behind the scenes to implement subjective gender identity before parliament has even considered legislation.

Yes, that bit was alarming! But there is also stuff about ensuring safety of women and flagging up that statistically women prisoners are likely to be especially vulnerable due to a history of domestic violence/child abuse.

I just hope the opinions of people at the coal face are properly heard. Prison governors are well aware of the potential for disaster, it seems.

Shudder. Just read that twitter link advert. In the homeless day centres there were always 2 or 3 of that ilk. The women like me had their arms wrapped around themselves and occupied as little space as possible, but people likd tara would strut around, fully made up, flicking their hair. They would occupy the bathroom/shower for hours doing makeup etc. And they grunted on the toilet like your average fella - even the toilet smells were male if you know what I mean. They were all happy using both male and female bathrooms and would switch interchangeably as took their fancy. I wasnt intimidated by them in my space but neither did I view them as the same as me. I dont have prison experience to relate.

In fact I am surprised they want to be in a womens prison. They all seem to love male adulation and dont like women much/find women boring. It is the late transitioners who are the space invaders. Maybe it is for compensation.

There is an important thread below which highlights how vulnerable women are when homeless and how they may be put at serious further risk.

Whilst there has been discussion of Women's refuge and rape support service, little has been said about shelters and service provision for women who are homeless.

There is of course some overlap with these services and with prisons.

Homeless services by definition, tend not to have onerous risk assessments. They respond quickly to need. They have limited resources.

Within this thread is a report from a homeless worker (US) who reports a murder and her very concerns about the context in which this happened as well as the manner in which it seems to have been dealt with.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266198-No-True-Transwoman-transadvocates-question-whether-TW-is-genuine-after-said-TW-sexually-harasses-women-in-homeless-shelter

If there are people here who signed the petition and have since changed their minds, and it's looking likely that the petition will be used to prove the public support TH, it might be worth those who did sign writing a letter to the MoJ explaining why they withdrew their support?

rowantrees I have extensive experience of night shelters. There is no comparison between usa and british system. Almost all our shelters are mixed (a few are single sex). Emergency shelters you share a room and sleep in same room and staff stay awake and watch you. Noone would assault you because that person would be called a 'wrongun' (nonce) and would not be safe on street. Rumours would often fly around if someone was suspected and if they couldnt refute it they would leave the area or take an offer of housing. The horror with some of these usa long term hostels is that they have long term residents sharing rooms unsupervised or even showers with no privacy like the residents are animals. Introduce trans to that mix and you have a nightmare. That is horrific and would not happen here. Or I hope not. That is just my experience.

Norther
Me too (though a few years ago)!

I think there is a need for some consideration.

There are many night shelters and homeless services which have different set-ups.

Some will have provision separated by sex.
For example, the direct access hostel where I worked had male and female accomodation on separate floors.

I am keen only to explore this area, not to 'scare-monger'

Hudson also alleges that an inmate groped her breasts and genitals, leaving her “threatened, distressed and humiliated”.

I have to say I thought this was par for the course in a male prison for a significant minority - i.e. those who were smaller, younger, appealing looking... There is no way I condone it, but it is part of the male culture of violence that needs tackling across the board

And I'm sorry - but if you give yourself huge boobs like that, it is - as her online presence demonstrates - to make yourself a sex object for men ... Surely she cannot be surprised by what happened?

Best possible outcome for this case is that there is serious consideration given to creating "third spaces" within male prisons for transgender prisoners... for their own protection and privacy. It does sound as if there are enough of them...

Also really important that they aren't made "more desirable" so that there isn't a built-in incentive to transition, as it would appear from recent governors' reports they are experiencing and fearing will happen on a greater scale, with "unexpected" men beginning to identify as women

I fear I may also have signed the petition. I was naive in those days & believed that such people would have had surgery etc. I swallowed their entire sob story. Never ever again.

Norther
The description of the night shelter that you are familiar with is not true for all homeless service provision.

Tara Hudson was my peak trans moment. And I'd just like to say to all the women on this thread who regret signing the petition:

LOOK HOW FAR YOU'VE COME!!!!!

If TH was really groped/harassed without permissiom then that was wrong, however TH identifies.

Empress

Norther - according to a submission made to the Equalities Commission by a body that works with prisoners, there is a widely held belief that women's prisons are easier than men's - they are certainly fewer dangerous and violent criminals in them. I can find you the extract if you like?

Orchidinthesun

Of course theres that too.

I am not experienced enough to give really coherent and complete viewpoint yet.

Rowantrees - thanks for another perspective. I do know about the separate floors thing. I stayed in one (one month then I got banned!!) To my shame I pushed it to accept a transgender person on the female floor. This was many years ago before I stopped believing womens spaces were a sanctuary for all and sundry. I can only apologise.

Norther
if you read the thread that I linked to, you will see that wider issues are raised. People with a lot of experience working with vulnerable people who are homeless, need to be able to bring their experience and insight to complex situations. There are specific examples where the imposition of federal laws in the US regarding self-d have hindered their work and also their ability to challenge this.

My concern (based on my own working experience) is that those who talk of case-by-case assessments etc, have rarely worked with risk assessments or have an understanding of how these work in practice rather than theory.