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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ministry of Justice being sued by a transwoman

100 replies

Easypeasy5 · 19/06/2018 12:19

Interesting article about date being set for transwoman suing the Ministry of Justice which is due to be heard in September. You may have already heard about the case earlier in the year but there is a local news article and a version in pink news depending on which publication you would rather read

The full article is at

www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/transgender-woman-bath-sues-ministry-1109115

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/12/transgender-prisoner-tara-hudson-ministry-of-justice-discrimination-trial/

but one of the lines in it says:

“Lawyers for the MoJ and government said Miss Hudson “is a matter of biological fact a man” and that being a “transwoman” has no legal significance.”

Will be interesting to see what the outcome is

OP posts:
NatashaGurdin · 19/06/2018 12:50

DJLippy Tue 19-Jun-18 12:41:24
MoJ and government lawyers claim they do not see Miss Hudson as female because she does not have gender recognition certificate.

The law is an ass. No male can ever become a female. Why is the law colluding in a lie?

Because this lie is unfortunately the law at present, a legal fiction. I hadn't heard of these before all this, I suppose there might be cases where it makes sense but the GRA doesn't make sense because of this basic lie in the first place.

nauticant · 19/06/2018 12:53

being disrespectful to talk about someones anatomy

It the government doesn't come to it's senses, that very thing is going to start happening in rape cases.

Pythagonal · 19/06/2018 12:54

The Transcrime page that Betty posted has an interesting link to a Mirror article. It's worth clicking through for a quick read. 😉

Mogleflop · 19/06/2018 12:56

"It made me question who I was."

Arguably, not enough.

ScienceIsTruth · 19/06/2018 12:56

I beginning to think I must be a man because I've never 'lived as a woman', and wouldn't even knows how/where to start.

What the fuck does that even mean?? How insulting???
I'm a woman simply because I have breasts, periods, uterus, vagina, vulva, etc. Surely the rest is just personality.

The world really is going to shit, and I truly wish that I could get off because this shit is just madness and makes no sense.

Humans cannot change sex. Ever. Get rid of stereotypes, but stop trying to fuck with reality. It's fucking mental, and will harm more people than it helps.

Easypeasy5 · 19/06/2018 13:00

The pink news article says that Tara Hudson was transferred to a female prison at HMP Eastwood Park.

OP posts:
Wanderabout · 19/06/2018 13:00

If Tara was my child, I wouldn't want them in a normal male prison. You can imagine the horror they would face. Even though I'm GC I dont want individuals to suffer. Maybe a specialist trans wing could be developed.

How would you feel if you had a daughter who was in a prison T was moved to?

Agree all prisoners deserve to be kept safe and a trans specific wing could be a good compromise.

Maryzsnewaccount · 19/06/2018 13:01

The Mirror article

Fucking hell. How confusing.

BettyDuMonde · 19/06/2018 13:03

This article seems to suggest TH was never in any actual danger in either prison. Additional rules were in place for TH’s safety (and restrictions made when accessing the women[s estate).

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/tara-hudson-the-harrowing-reality-of-being-a-trans-woman-in-an-a/

Seems a bit disingenuous to try and sue 2 years after release, when special considerations were made and you’re on record confirming it.

I guess the tabloid payments dried up?

Datun · 19/06/2018 13:09

Norther

I'm not sure what you're saying? A GRC does not involve any kind of surgery, at all.

Hudson has acquired hormones from the Internet and has had breast surgery. They are not homeless. Or without resources. Tara earns a living.

Acquiring a GRC involves a diagnosis from a doctor, and two years living in role. That's it. And Hudson already has the two years.

Perhaps I've missed your point?

It's worth noting that in 2015 Hudson was saying, yes 'I'm a bloke'. See the link above where they talk about how they tricked men (their words, not mine) into thinking they were female.

"When I'm modelling for glamour shoots I feel like the sexiest girl alive, no-one has any idea that I'm actually a bloke.

"The guys who called up would talk dirty things to me as if I was a woman, but I would never correct them.

"When I worked on the adult channels I tricked a lot of the guys and they didn't know I was a transsexual

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/playboy-tv-chat-glamour-model-6370355

loveyouradvice · 19/06/2018 13:12

I suspect someone came forward ready to bankroll the case, and who knows could even have given Tara some money to go through the "indignity".....

How does anyone who advertises their "seven-inch surprise" have the all to claim they have been living as a woman???????

Mind boggles....

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/06/2018 13:13

I'm glad they are suing, and I hope the case is not laughed out of court. This could be a very important test case, and I would like to see a very carefully considered, comprehensive rebuttal to their claims.

loveyouradvice · 19/06/2018 13:13

gall that is... and I had forgotten that seven-inch surprise

Will be fascinating to see what a jury make of this - and Im right in thinking jurors can discuss the case afterwards? Or not???

bd67th · 19/06/2018 13:16

@norther Even though I'm GC I dont want individuals to suffer.

Neither do I, which is why I don't want this violent biological male in a women's prison, because the women in that prison are individuals who would suffer if made to share accommodation with a violent biological male.

Maybe a specialist trans wing could be developed.

Yes, I agree, a dedicated transwomen's unit, separate from both male and female estate would keep transwomen safe from male genpop and biological females safe from all males.

As an aside: a modest proposal to reduce officer-on-inmate sexual abuse: use the Equality Act sex-based exemptions to ban males from serving as prison officers in the female estate.

Datun · 19/06/2018 13:18

It would appear that Hudson isn't being entirely honest.

“There were a few occasions where men put forth a negative attitude but the vast majority supported me. The doctors’ surgery would send my letters to Mr Tara Hudson, which was ridiculous.

“At the time I didn’t see it as harassment or aggression – it was just ‘we love you’, ‘we’re your fan club’, ‘try and come onto our wing’ and so on. But the guards were really cautious about it. I moved cells three times in seven days.”

After transfer to a female prison:

“I felt discriminated against. They put rules in place for me and it was all because I didn’t have my gender recognition certificate. There was another inmate there who had just started transitioning. I’m not saying it in a bigoted way - but compared to me, she looked like a man in a dress. It was a joke that she was allowed into the normal, bigger wing and I wasn’t, because I don’t have the certificate.”

And here ^, again, we have people born male, thinking that being female is all about the way you look^.

It's so bloody obvious!

bd67th · 19/06/2018 13:22

the women in that prison are individuals who would suffer if made to share accommodation with a violent biological male.

My balancing of rights goes like this: the safety of a female is equal to the safety of a male. The safety of a female trumps the feelings of a male, and vice-versa. In the case of a violent male being housed in a women's prison for his safety, I value the safety of the many female prisoners over the safety of the one male. If this feels wrong to you, it's probably because you consider female humans to have less value than male humans.

BettyDuMonde · 19/06/2018 13:26

According to Hudson in this article (the story shifts slightly with each interview) the governor of the women’s prison would definitely get kicked off Mumsnet under the new rules...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3358423/Transgender-woman-sent-men-s-prison-says-forced-flash-male-lags-terrified-raped.html

Norther · 19/06/2018 13:30

Datun
Sorry my point was muddled. Some people were saying tara doesnt have a grc. Like if they had a grc that would be different. I disagree. I support segregation on biological lines. And also bear in mind (not you personally) that people who tick the most boxes in terms of surgery, grc, hormones etc are often the older late transitioners who you would want the least in single sex spaces. Sorry I expressed myself badly. Wasnt attacking simply adding a side note.

BarrackerBarmer · 19/06/2018 13:32

There was another inmate there who had just started transitioning. I’m not saying it in a bigoted way - but compared to me, she looked like a man in a dress. It was a joke that she was allowed into the normal, bigger wing and I wasn’t, because I don’t have the certificate.”

So the women had to accommodate two biological males in with them, one with a GRC and 'allowed in the normal bigger wing' and one without.
Both or only one of whom may have still had his penis.
Poor women.
(How could the other inmate have only 'started transitioning' and yet had a GRC?)

bd67th · 19/06/2018 13:34

After the case is concluded, a juror can discuss anything that was presented in open court because it's a matter of public record, but shouldn't discuss their jury deliberations. What is said in the jury room is meant to be forever confidential to the jury, because jurors need to be able to speak freely without repercussions. So we won't be able to ask jurors to discuss their deliberations. (In reality, I have alluded to my jury's (very brief) deliberations under circumstances where it would be impossible to identify the case and by extension the other jurors.)

Datun · 19/06/2018 13:43

Norther

Ah right. Thanks for the clarification. And I completely agree. I don't believe a GRC should allow men into female prisoners either.

A diagnosis of gender dysphoria has absolutely nothing to do with how safe that person is or how women would feel being imprisoned next to them.

'A men with gender dysphoria' is a ludicrous way to categorise reproductive sex. Although, a man with a sexual fetish about women, seems worse!

Part of the problem with this is the sexism that is so endemic in every aspect it runs into.

If Hudson gets dressed up looking like a booby glamour model I can totally see, the male members of the judiciary thinking there's no way they should go to male prison.

Which I don't disagree with. But then you would also have to also include all the other men who get raped in prison. Mail violence is sickening. It should be addressed. But not by using a female prison as a spillover for potential victims.

What next? Men claiming they've been raped in order to get transferred?

BettyDuMonde · 19/06/2018 13:43

Interesting diagram regarding how decisions are made on where to house Trans prisoners.

Decisions are made by a panel, it seems.

www.clinks.org/sites/default/files/basic/files-downloads/clinks_briefing_moj-trans-offenders_v2.pdf

They clearly don’t get it right every time, but DOJ will be keen not to lose this case as it will presumably make them vulnerable to more court action.

Ministry of Justice being sued by a transwoman
Southfields · 19/06/2018 14:09

For me, it really is all about the peen.

Southfields · 19/06/2018 14:12

norther what a very excellent point.

It is a notorious fact that men do indeed get raped in prison.

We have no idea whether trans women (have I got the space right?) are more likely to be victims or just as likely, or less likely.

Maryzsnewaccount · 19/06/2018 14:21

bd67th wrote: "As an aside: a modest proposal to reduce officer-on-inmate sexual abuse: use the Equality Act sex-based exemptions to ban males from serving as prison officers in the female estate."

Can I add a modest proposal to reduce inmate-on-officer sexual abuse: use the Equality Act sex-based exemptions to ban male bodied prisoners from demanding that strip searches are carried out by female prison officers, as occurs in Canada.

This is one of TH's complaints 'They also got a woman to strip-search my top half, but my bottom half was searched by men. I'm not self-conscious - but it was so humiliating.'

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