Why should we be made to lie?

[spontaneousgiventime]

Before the guidelines we, biological women, were free to tell the truth about people who present as the opposite sex.

Now we can't. Even if we abide by the rules and not use the acronyms listed we can still get a strike, three strikes and we are out.

I will NOT refer to people who present as the opposite sex as trans wo/men. That steals my sex and I won't do it. I tried to use another name I thought was reasonable - nope, not acceptable and got a strike.

MN, why do you want your members to lie. I along with millions like me were brought up always to tell the truth, yet here on MN that's looked down on. Why?

Natch... we are wonderful brave inventive women - we can do it.

I agree that it is wrong and unfair and not how it should be

But the biggest challenge is getting our message out to the wider public and opening enough eyes that Self Id and change to the Equality Act (except to strengthen it, if necessary) don't happen - and that organisations (from GG and the YHA to Sussex schools and who-knows-how-many companies) start realising that Equality Impact Assessments are essential and that it is dangerous and inappropriate not to prioritise the far larger number of women and girls in almost every case... and that there is much that can be done to protect trans people WITHOUT giving away other people's rights.

For me it's simple - I hope - I'm going to speak of transpeople and transperson... and see where I get to because, yes, sex does then usually come into it but appropriately contextually ....Crossing my fingers as I write this: am I being naive? Going to see....

Though I did rather like the simple P-people and V-people from that dynamic youtbuber....

There is a victory on this thread 💪🏻💪🏻

Do we have to lye about women who say they are Men, I certainly will not.

Rat: words work by meaning the same thing to different people. If they don't, they are not words, they are just sounds. You can't pick and choose and cherry pick.

What about woman definitely and ONLY means adult human female because that's what it says in the dictionary

See, I don't say that. Partly because we know you can change dictionaries, and resources like Wiki. I say it means that because is THE only word that accurately encapsulates the adult person with the female reproductive role, and without it you have NO word to describe the adult person with the female reproductive role.

Im a bit baffled by this arguement.

Yes, transwoman is in the dictionary. Its a real word. It has a meaning. As does woman, and male.

That doesnt mean we have to use it.
Theres a lot of words in the dictionary we choose not to use, as theyre offensive to us, or to others.

To me personally, its irrelevant its in the dictionary. Its just offensive to suggest someone born male can be a woman, in any way.

MNHQ have built a tower of Babel with this new appeasement strategy.

Transactivists are only cross because we are visibly the biggest victims.

Rat - what you seem to have been saying is that it 'being in the dictionary' somehow 'validates' fact.

That is the exact opposite of what I've been saying - for literally months.

What I'm saying is, it's amusing to me that a hugely popular GC argument (perhaps not with you Pratchet, or anybody here, but undeniably in general) is to hold up the dictionary as some paragon of truth when it comes to defining "woman"; but to refuse to use a word expressly defined within it on account of it being a "lie".

Now I've been saying the dictionary argument is nonsense for a long time, so I won't castigate anyone who thinks it's meaningless that it contains "transwoman", but I will continue to think it more than a little ridiculous given how often and with so much conviction I've been battered round the head with the bloody dictionary argument.

I will not kowtow to an ideology that demands I cannot speak the truth.

I have no problem with the word 'transwoman' because it makes it clear that transwomen are a different group to women. A trans person is someone who identifies with the opposite sex and takes steps to imitate it - surgery, dress etc - but will never be the opposite sex. A lot of people (like Miranda Yardley) are happy to acknowledge that.

I have seen the term transwomen being used here for ages by posters of all beliefs. I don't understand why it is suddenly impossible to use this term for so many posters. It refers to a natal biological male who has transitioned and identifies as female.

Because it perpetuates the lie that men can be women. It has an NLP effect. Obliging someone to repeat a lie is a display of dominance over them. This is all about who has power. When I realised this, about 2 years ago, I made a conscious decision to stop using that word. I will find ways around it if I have to but I will NOT use that word.

"Being made to repeat an obvious lie makes it clear that you’re powerless.”

Hannah Arendt

Hugely popular GC argument? I have never seen it one time. What I have seen is transactivists endlessly quoting Merriam Webster which I think included 'identifies' as one of its definitions. Sometimes they screenshot it. Sometimes they link. It's very dull.

I agree with Eresh except I don't know what NLP means.

Essentially it's gaslighting. And as someone who has been a victim of emotional abuse in a violently controlling relationship I have major issues with it.

Ugh how do you come here day after day. It must be punishing. I'm so sorry for that.

Neuro Linguistic Programming

It's generally used in a positive way, I can't think of a term about deliberate and insidious manipulation of people's minds which means what I am getting at other than gaslighting or brainwashing or conditioning.

I come here to say NO. Fuck that. I want to show this up for what it is.

NLP! That's exactly the phrase I was looking for the other day! I used social programming instead. This is exactly what is going on!

Being made to repeat an obvious lie makes it clear that you’re powerless.

Hear hear.

Yes, also fuck that from me. Fuck it.

Mumsnetbis a private company run for profit and facing s huge amount of attack. Shame if they have to cave to these self obssessd dictatorial (was so tempted to say dicktatorial but I won’t go low) numpties - I’m more worried about being forced to lie and being forced to talk in a certain way out in the real world being legislated by government.

I used to use the term transwoman, (which my autocorrect always tries to put a bloody space in) because my intention was to be polite and respectful. Never trans woman though- because not a woman. I am not sharing my category and becoming a subcategory of my own sex, thanks. Also cis is offensive to me for the same reasons.

But using transwoman has changed a bit for me:

• I don’t feel like being courteous when I am forced to be so
• I don’t feel like being courteous when the TRA lobby insisting on it is so authoritarian and misogynistic as to threaten and attack women for meeting and speaking etc
• I also write for lurkers because I was one for a long time and when I was just starting to read these threads I thought transwoman might mean a natal woman who identified as trans.

-so that brings me to a place where trans status + original sex term seems much clearer (as expressed handily with the acronym which may be called to mind if I said ‘...Nice but Dim’ or a very short nickname for the woman’s name ‘Tiffany’)

• however my understanding of MN rules is sex based terms are out and gender based terms are allowed but that brings me back to the first point that not everyone understands what gender based terms actually refer to. Society in general used sex based terms like woman or man. So actually we are being not allowed to use sex based terms at a point when it feels more important to do so both for clarity and solidarity with women reasons.

-also I think gender based terms (because of the expansion of the ‘trans’ label as as umbrella to cover anyone at all), are now a bit redundant. I’m female but I would probably be trans in some people’s books because I am not ‘feminine’ in some ways. I don’t think of myself as trans because I think gender stereotyping is hierarchical bollocks.

I’m more worried about being forced to lie and being forced to talk in a certain way out in the real world being legislated by government
me too . Its social programming - very scary.

I mean this is the mindset of the folk advising the government on these issues.