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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Why should we be made to lie?

145 replies

spontaneousgiventime · 18/06/2018 19:16

Before the guidelines we, biological women, were free to tell the truth about people who present as the opposite sex.

Now we can't. Even if we abide by the rules and not use the acronyms listed we can still get a strike, three strikes and we are out.

I will NOT refer to people who present as the opposite sex as trans wo/men. That steals my sex and I won't do it. I tried to use another name I thought was reasonable - nope, not acceptable and got a strike.

MN, why do you want your members to lie. I along with millions like me were brought up always to tell the truth, yet here on MN that's looked down on. Why?

OP posts:
MsMcWoodle · 18/06/2018 21:01

rat - I'm sure 'unicorn' is in the dictionary too.

Original poster
spontaneousgiventime · 18/06/2018 21:02

So is fantasist.

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 18/06/2018 21:06

I'm sure 'unicorn' is in the dictionary too.

So... would it be a lie to use it to describe a horse with a horn on its head?

alexpolistigers · 18/06/2018 21:08

Transsubstantiation is also in the dictionary, but that does not compel me to believe in it.

The dictionary is simply a compilation of words. It is not exaustive or infallible.

MsMcWoodle · 18/06/2018 21:10

It would probably be a lie to say that they exist,

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 18/06/2018 21:16

Karma, martians, ghosts...all these things are in the dictionary too. Doesn't mean they exist!

pombear · 18/06/2018 21:17

To your question why should we made to lie'?

Because it makes some people feel better about their ideas about themselves, because they feel uncomfortable in their own body.

Because it makes some other people happy that they have encroached into another's space, and are able to demonstrate power and control over a biological sex they have little respect for.

Because it makes some other people happy (and potentially sexually aroused/power-aroused) that they have forced themselves into spaces, both theoretical and real, that they shouldn't be in.

Because it makes some other people happy that, by lying, and being silenced, we are not able to defend some children who, otherwise, would be liberated to live free and happy lives as who they are, non-medicated, non-stereotyped. (NB: these children are not good role-models for the happy people described in this paragraph, as they challenge the happy people's descriptions of gender/their own identity/questionable ideas).

PeakPants · 18/06/2018 21:18

I have seen the term transwomen being used here for ages by posters of all beliefs. I don't understand why it is suddenly impossible to use this term for so many posters. It refers to a natal biological male who has transitioned and identifies as female.

MsMcWoodle · 18/06/2018 21:18

I bet Dr Johnson didn't have transwoman in his dictionary.
As for Wikipedia - really unnerving to see how that is being edited.

Kettlepotblackagain · 18/06/2018 21:18

Try looking up what dictionary means in the dictionary rat.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 18/06/2018 21:20

Peak many of us have never used that term. It implies they are a subset of women, when they aren't. They are all male. I always referred to them as TIMs but that word isn't allowed even though it is accurate in a way transWOMAN can never be.

Kettlepotblackagain · 18/06/2018 21:20

It refers to a natal biological male who has transitioned and identifies as female.

Who knew?

MsMcWoodle · 18/06/2018 21:21

You see - I don't believe that a man can become a woman. If you make me say that you are being oppressive.

CosmicCanary · 18/06/2018 21:25

I refuse to lie.

I am using male and female. Not trans anything. Just male and female.

PeakPants · 18/06/2018 21:26

OK, but it means 'male to female transsexual' or 'a transgender person'. It does not mean they are biologically female at all. It would be different if MNHQ was insisting that they be referred to as 'women'. People use the term 'trans men' on a frequent basis- is that not equally as much of a lie?

I guess that in the scheme of things, it seems a bit short-sighted to get hung up on a term that was used without question until relatively recently. Is it worth completely abandoning any debate because of it?

ChickenMe · 18/06/2018 21:27

Not lying either
Being made to lie is abusive
If I get banned, life goes on and shall continue to think and say the same in real life

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 18/06/2018 21:28

I don't and won't use transmen either.

Male and female, men and women, boys and girls...:these are all good!

RatRolyPoly · 18/06/2018 21:29

The dictionary is simply a compilation of words. It is not exaustive or infallible.

Finally! I have been saying that for yonks, every time someone tries to educate me on the meaning of the word "woman" in fact.

It would probably be a lie to say that they exist

I don't see what that has to do with anything; male to female transexuals exist; the dictionary seems to be saying that an acceptable word to describe them is "transwoman".

I bet Dr Johnson didn't have transwoman in his dictionary.

I bet he didn't have chainsaw in there either, or bisexual; and? Is it the original dictionary we have to live by now? Now that the one we've been citing as the one true definition of "woman" contains a word we don't want to use?

Try looking up what dictionary means in the dictionary rat.

I don't give a toss about the dictionary, to be fair. I'm just surprised that so many who have bashed me round the head with it's "truth" now won't submit to it on the basis of its lies.

PeakPants · 18/06/2018 21:30

How then do you identify between a transgender man and a non transgender man? Or do you just say transgender man? Isn't that effectively the same as saying trans-identified male?

MsMcWoodle · 18/06/2018 21:36

Yup. Language is malleable. Scientific fact stays the same unless we find new facts.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 18/06/2018 21:43

I can't use TIM anymore so it looks like I can't distinguish between them. Maybe it doesn't matter - maybe it's better to just recognize them as the men that they are.

I won't be tying myself in knots though trying to work out what words I MAY use so that I don't offend people. It's completely crazy.

RatRolyPoly · 18/06/2018 21:44

Language is malleable.

Scientific fact stays the same

Oh thank god, finally some sanity on the subject.

So if society broadly recognises transwomen as women in certain social settings, we can use that word if we want to, right? Because language is malleable?

And if the dictionary recognises a relatively new word, "transwoman", to describe what was previously known round here by an offensive acronym, that's probably okay too, right? Because no actual facts have been changed; the facts are exactly the bloody same. So the word is just the right word to describe that so that everyone knows what you're talking about, right?

AnotherQuoll · 18/06/2018 21:46

I'm ok with using "Transladies" , and a number of us gender critcal lesbians on Twitter have been using it for a while. Indicates their gender aspirations and the social role they're trying to play, without lying about their sex.

MsMcWoodle · 18/06/2018 21:47

Oops - no rat - you see science still doesn't agree that they are women, so no, I won't be calling them that. If science finds new facts I might change my mind.
Until then, please stop oppressing me.

ElenOfTheWays · 18/06/2018 21:48

Surely the point about the dictionary is that it contains words used to describe things (And concepts) that are both real and not real.
The description of a unicorn will state that it's an imaginary creature for example, I suppose.

Transwoman is in the dictionary you say. I don't doubt it, I haven't looked it up, but I'll bet folding money it's not defined as meaning "adult human female" . But we are supposed to say it means that anyway, aren't we? That's the goal here. We all know it.