What is happening with the Girl Guides?????

[loveyouradvice]

Fascinating long threads a while ago... I'm hoping they are gathering legal resources to take forward a group action....

But love to know what else - if anything - is happening .... or has happened

I think stuff is probably happening, and a proper update will follow in due course.

In the meantime, if parents/concerned people could write, email or tweet their concerns to Girlguiding then that would be very helpful. If no one does they will be able to say no one objects, so everyone must agree with their policy.
Information on how to contact them here: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/complaints-policy/complaints-procedure/

There's a Facebook group called Sisters to All Guides focused on this. From what I read there they haven't managed to get any understanding from Girl Guiding

There isn't a huge amount to share at the moment.

I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide last month. It was an interesting meeting. Much reference to legal advice that meant they have to have the trans policy written in this way. I think this legal advice is either wrong or has been misapplied. Interesting that the legal firm in question is one of Stonewall's partners in its new trans allies programme.

There was also noticeable irritation that I and others have been discussing this on Mumsnet, Facebook and Twitter. The impression I was left with is that GGUK doesn't want this policy discussed in public or even really put in the public domain. Heaven forbid parents and girls understand that GG would now be more accurately described as mixed sex/single gender.

There was no real outcome of that meeting. The CEO is leaving imminently (this week I think) and a successor hasn't been appointed yet. The EHRC is due to publish updates guidance for schools this summer and they were adamant that no action could be taken until that advice comes out.

We have referred GG to the EHRC to seek specific guidance on the GG policy and their response is expected shortly. Nothing is moving quickly.

As for me personally, I'm still a leader but not a popular one. I've received a written warning for my "misconduct" and am being investigated following complaints received by GG. I do not know who made them and what the exact nature of those complaints are. I expect all will become clear in time.

Thanks for this, I've been meaning to email them. Just sent one. Let's see what response I get - if any.

Must be very difficult Agnes. Just want to add to others who've said how impressed and grateful we are that you're taking this stand

and a wee bit of and depending on your fancy....

Agnes you are amazing - thank you for hanging on in there, and being - like so many of the amazing women on here - someone who is ready to fight for women and girls. I can imagine it is really challenging - and I'm just deeply grateful that you are doing this.

In time, they will realise how right you were - and you will be thanked and acknowledged more widely - not much consolation when it is rough but sanity will prevail

Thanks so much for all you're doing Agnes. I find their response appalling. It sounds like they want this hushed up which I think is rather sinister not to mention a complete failure of safeguarding.

Agnes, I’m only an ex brownie, from a million years ago and I have boys so I doubt I’ll ever cross paths with GG again. But thank you - this is such an important cause.

Women like you are the true heroes of this - willing to stand up, put your head over the parapet and face the consequences. I’m sure I’m not alone in reading the GG threads and rooting for you. You’re inspirational.

I'd like to thank you, Agnes. My granddaughter has just started Rainbows, so you're doing this for her too.

Thank you Agnes. I really appreciate your principled stance and your prioritisation of the needs of girls and young women. (given GG UK don’t appear to share this priority under the current leadership, despite the clear statement of their aims in GG uk’s charitable objects...)

I agree with others, Agnes, you are doing such an important thing & I'm fully in support of you. They are behaving disgracefully.

Agnes thank you for your work

Thanks for your kind words. I'm not alone in this, there are other leaders and supporters working behind the scenes.

Trans issues are still banned from discussion on Girlguide leaders forums. I'm away if at least one county issuing a memo to its members advising leaders to report other leaders who publicly criticise the policy. We have a very long way to go.

I would ask that if you can, you raise this with your brown owl and other parents any way you can - at the school gate, at NCT and other baby groups, the WI, any sort of local politics or feminist meeting. My experience is that people are horrified when they learn the details of the new policy but they didn't know anything about it.

I spoke briefly at the Women's Place UK meeting in Newcastle and will try to attend as many similar events as possible to spread the word.

I also need to do some template letters - I'm a bit behind with my admin. New job and the complaint stuff has taken priority. But I'm getting on top of things now. The EHRC response should be out soon and that will guide our next steps.

Thanks all for your support

Who are the legal team advising them? I would love to know why GG and other public sector and voluntary organisations have all recently come up with these self id policies. Are they being targeted by a firm or firms? And what is their basis for their interpretation of the EA that means self id is the only legal option, as all these organisations now seem to believe?

Thanks again for the fabulous work!

Oh and contact their insurers?

Yes agree, thank you Agnes.

Jaffa - I'm wondering the same about the GG and all this organisations.

Self-Id is not law (yet). I asked this in my email - why they are prioritising gender assignment over sex in their interpretation of the EA and why do they take this to mean self-Id?

It seems to me you can identify the law as meaning anything you want it to now, by just assuming it goes along worth Twitter discourse.

I'd very much like to know what who is advising them.

Not relevant to the trans discussion, but I thought you might all appreciate this wonderful yet strange new GG badge.

That badge is very much centred on female biology. How long do we think it will stay in that form?

GGUK has its own legal team but I believe it also retains BLP as external lawyers. The same BLP that has close links to Stonewall - it's a "top ten" trans employer and a founding partner of stonewall's trans allies programme.

I believe that GG has misinterpreted and misapplied the equality act. It has not considered the single sex exemptions. GG has made the point that the law doesn't allow for routine exclusion of trans people but that's not what I'm asking. Im asking it to apply single sex exemptions for communal accommodation and bathroom facilities, which the EA does regard as lawful.

The period poverty badge also includes a caveat that not only women have periods

It's at pains to point out that trans men have them too. The same transmen that aren't permitted to join or be full members of GG, because they don't identify as women, despite sharing the same protected characteristic of its beneficiary class.

The whole thing is a mess.

There was an unbelievable thread on a leaders forum about that badge - lots of comments about how periods are just a bit icky and shouldn't be the basis of a badge, with a smattering of "this is so transphobic" comments. My eyes rolled all the way round.

Those comments were left to stand but any comment I've made about trans issues has been deleted or closed to further comment. Apparently on instruction from GGHQ.

I've started trying to get the message out with another parent at my DD's GG. She's in agreement but not really getting the full implications yet. I'll be sounding out her captain after the summer break. The EHRC guidance (I hope) will make the conversation easier.

I was pissed off when this policy came in but only read posts from leaders insisting it was no big deal. It's thanks to your courage Agnes that I've made steps to start challenging this. You have my sincere thanks for shining a light on this.

Are leaders volunteers?

My girls have almost left Guiding now (dd2 finishes as a young leader / senior section this term and dd3 has left) so I hadn't heard about this from GG. Thank you Agnes for challenging them.

VariousDisabilities, yes the leaders are volunteers :)

Why are volunteers taking that type of control from above?